Iron Lore: Malhavoc's Surprise?

[Michael Tree]

As a follow up on this, you could have a campaign where some of the charecters belong to orders (i.e. the Druids) that give them items, or items only work for the D&D charecters. Or conversely, if someone wanted to play an IL charecter in a D&D game, then magic wouldn't work for them (and treasure should be adjusted accordingly)

You could even play it like a AD&D1e barbarian or 3.0 forsaker, for a character who refuses to use magic, and has taken vows to that effect.

There is an enormous difference between those games and Iron Lore - Iron Lore replaces magic with expanded/new abilities and a different model of play, all while keeping the power curve at D&D's level. You can use your Monster Manual, or Tome of Horrors, or Fiend Folio, or whatever, with Iron Lore without a single smidge of conversion, and the monsters work in just the way you'd expect WRT CR and party level.

That's my favorite aspect of this game. I don't want another separate game with d20-based mechanics, I want a way to play D&D with more heroic action and less diablo-esque reliance on magic items. I already have lots of separate games I don't play, I don't need one more; but a book that will let me play D&D the way I greatly prefer, that's gold.

Now, if only Iron Lore was out in time for Tekumel d20 to be based on it. (Speaking of games I own but don't play... )

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

You can use your Monster Manual, or Tome of Horrors, or Fiend Folio, or whatever, with Iron Lore without a single smidge of conversion, and the monsters work in just the way you'd expect WRT CR and party level.

I'm not certain why you think this is an enormous deviation from Grim Tales.

Exactly how much playtesting of d20 monster sourcebooks did you do with character builds from the other game systems mentioned?

Obviously, I've run more than a few Grim Tales games without converting a single monster, feat, or spell-- though I could certainly lump a few changes that I instinctively make under the larger umbrella of "a different model of play."

I don't mean to detract from Iron Lore at all, it sounds like a great product that I will certainly be picking up. It almost sounds to me like a super-heroic overlay on top of grim fantasy.

 

[frankthedm]

Magical items - the DM's guidebook has rules for these. They work a little like items from Call of Cthulhu.

Can you hear the munchkins weeping?

I like this.

 

[JVisgaitis]

This book sounds really cool. Just one question Mike, I bought the Iron Might PDF which I thoroughly enjoyed, but I really don't get a lot of use out of PDFs and I was intending on buying the print book. Would there be a point in me buying the print version of Iron Might or should I just hold off for Iron Lore?

 

[TerraDave]

I'm not certain why you think this is an enormous deviation from Grim Tales.

Exactly how much playtesting of d20 monster sourcebooks did you do with character builds from the other game systems mentioned?

Obviously, I've run more than a few Grim Tales games without converting a single monster, feat, or spell-- though I could certainly lump a few changes that I instinctively make under the larger umbrella of "a different model of play."

I don't mean to detract from Iron Lore at all, it sounds like a great product that I will certainly be picking up. It almost sounds to me like a super-heroic overlay on top of grim fantasy.

(you know I love Grim Tales, I even got is a gift for friend, but...)

Doesn't Grim Tales have its own system for calculting EL that is a little different then 3rd ed D&D? You could use an old Red Dragon, but could you use the printed CR against charecters without magic items (or tech)?

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

(you know I love Grim Tales, I even got is a gift for friend, but...)

Doesn't Grim Tales have its own system for calculting EL that is a little different then 3rd ed D&D? You could use an old Red Dragon, but could you use the printed CR against charecters without magic items (or tech)?

Three things:

1) The numbers used to describe EL are different, but the relative EL is exactly the same. What is a moderate encounter for Party X in D&D is exactly the same moderate encounter in GT.

2) Dragons aren't the best example since WOTC intentionally undervalues their CR by a factor of 2/3. Makes 'em seem "tougher."

But to answer your question: CR in GT is exactly the same as CR in D&D.

3) Yeah, you could use the CR as printed, but that doesn't change the same situational modifiers that would be present in D&D-- chief among which is probably "Can they fly, do they have ranged weapons, and/or can they get to cover?" But that's the same as it would be in D&D-- doesn't change the dragon's CR, yet it is still a factor to be considered.

Whether or not the party has "magic" or "tech" is certainly relevant, I wouldn't dispute that.

But then I suspect even Iron Lore would have its own problems with unequipped PCs caught by a dragon on an open field. (I hope that doesn't sound like a straw man setup.)


Wulf

 

[Testament]

Can you hear the munchkins weeping?

I like this.

This munchkin's weeping...for joy. This product sounds like everything I've ever wanted! A skills-based magic system for D&D, w007!

Sing with me, "I LIKE SWORDS!"

 

[ecliptic]

I am just afraid the book may take it a bit too far. Like a feat that makes your weapon "magic" for going through damage reduction.

 

[scourger]

2) Will there be other support for it? Setting, adventures, etc? Or can we take your comments about using any d20 Monster book as is to suggest that might be true of other things like adventures and settings?

Answer: There's one supplement already written, another in the works. The game is designed to be very portable for DMs. Since the base power level is built around D&D's, you can import almost anything for the DM to use without any hassles. For character option, like classes and feats, there's some simple conversion rules. A lot of the design is built to make life as easy for the DM as possible.

I surmsie from the answer that no adventure support is intended. The answer suggests that a DM can import any D&D adventure to Iron Lore...as long as all the player & the DM use Iron Lore (IL) for the player characters. It's an ingenous solution to the publisher's conundrum that sourcebooks sell more than adventures do yet adventures get people playing which sells sourcebooks. IL will sell to players & DMs, which is good for the publisher; and individual DMs can use adventures from other sources without this publisher being obligated to make adventures to support this alternate game. Portability. HMMM.

My concern is that my players don't like it when the bad guys can do stuff that they can't do. So, traditional spell-casting foes make them unhappy if all they have is naked steel. I just think that no matter how much cool stuff they can do, they will always lament the lack of cool stuff that they don't have; especially if the bad guys can do the cool magic that they can't do. It just seems like a hard sell.

Also, how portable is it, really? I may be able to achieve the same effect as a DM by just challenging the group of non-magic PCs to standrad adventures that are a few CRs lower in level. Why embrace IL to make this happen?

I do like the small bit of Mike's work that I have. I'll look for more information on this game notwithstanding my reservations.

 

[arscott]

But then I suspect even Iron Lore would have its own problems with unequipped PCs caught by a dragon on an open field. (I hope that doesn't sound like a straw man setup.)

Wulf, I think that the whole point of IL is that there wouldn't be a problem, or as not as much of a problem (insomuch as a dragon doesn't represent a problem to a party that is equipped).

Grim Tales is a low-magic sourcebook. And an awesome one to boot. But I think that Iron Legends isn't low magic, it's just magic* in the heroes, not the junk they're wearing.

I dislike the magic system (both spells and items) in D&D. I think that it essentially takes the magic out of magic. But I also don't want a system where every time you cast magic missle, you suffer con damage (or san loss, or nonlethal damage, or whatever). I want the feel of a D&D campaign without it turning into walmart. And sometimes I prefer my tales to be fairy instead of grim.

And while I may just be projecting my own desires onto a product I don't know that much about, It does seem like Iron Legends will do this.
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*Or its high-powered non-supernatural equivalent.