Iron Lore: Malhavoc's Surprise?

[Hammerhead]

The warrior could try and run and duck for cover as the dragon tries to firebreath him until he reaches more advantageous terrain, then leaps off a cliff or something onto the dragon's back and kills it up there. Wouldn't that work and still match the style of Howard or Lieber?

 

[Felon]

OR the hero could just exhibit the good sense to fight the dragon in a more favorable environment, like one with a nice strong ceiling--a cavern perchance. Which is someplace dragons are oft found.

 

[jgbrowning]

Thanks for the info Mike. As always look forward to the finished product.

joe b.

 

[Greatwyrm]

OR the hero could just exhibit the good sense to fight the dragon in a more favorable environment, like one with a nice strong ceiling--a cavern perchance. Which is someplace dragons are oft found.

You know, aside from St. George, I can't think of anybody who fought a dragon capable of flying in the open and came out on top. I can't remember if Beowulf fought his in the open, but that was a draw at best.

 

[A'koss]

You know, aside from St. George, I can't think of anybody who fought a dragon capable of flying in the open and came out on top. I can't remember if Beowulf fought his in the open, but that was a draw at best.

Uh... read much Tolkein Greatwyrm?

Cheers!

 

[Felon]

You know, aside from St. George, I can't think of anybody who fought a dragon capable of flying in the open and came out on top. I can't remember if Beowulf fought his in the open, but that was a draw at best.

Remember Smaug?

Heh... I'll withhold judgement on that.

No, wait. I won't. Mike: Don't do it.

I don't need no crap where the fighter is leaping hundreds of feet in the air to land blows with his sword.

That's not exactly the stuff of Lieber or Howard, there.

Just read all five pages of the thread, and I'm not sure why you are so enamored with the flying dragon scenario. You have to be able to engage a monster in melee to be able to beat it?

The dragon will use a ranged attack, and the PC's will counter in kind. Heck, a comp longbow outranges a dragon's breath by quite a bit. From "hundreds of feat in the air", a dragon can't do much other than drop loogeys.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

Yep, well placed arrow shots and plenty of running around and screaming strike me as the proper anti-dragon in an open field tactics.

That or avoiding any serious harm from the dragons ranged attacks and thus forcing it to either close or retreat.

Does anyone remember how flight worthy the dragons in the hero and the crown were? I seem to remember that some could, but if the great wyrm could it couldn't have been too maneuverable.

 

[ecliptic]

A smart dragon would run.

Anyway I just hope this doesn't turn out to be anime in words.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Just read all five pages of the thread, and I'm not sure why you are so enamored with the flying dragon scenario.

I guess you should read those 5 pages again.

You have to be able to engage a monster in melee to be able to beat it?

Perhaps you do, yes. You need to be able to strike the dragon. You need to be able to strike the incorporeal, flying, armor-bypassing, level-draining spectre, and according to mearls, you will to be able to do it in such a way that the spectre remains CR7. The spectre will be a cakewalk for four 7th level Iron Lore heroes.

Mike made the interesting distinction between story elements and system elements, that the ability to fly was a story element, and that Iron Lore "fixes" system-based CR issues in a way that other low-magic systems have failed to do.

If he doesn't "fix" the dragon's ability to fly (as just the easiest of examples), then the dragon will still prove too difficult for its CR.

The dragon will use a ranged attack, and the PC's will counter in kind. Heck, a comp longbow outranges a dragon's breath by quite a bit. From "hundreds of feat in the air", a dragon can't do much other than drop loogeys.

If the dragon is able to retreat to the skies until its breath weapon is ready to go again, he will crush the PCs. They can't bypass its DR (a system element mearls has already said he has not changed), they have no magic weapons, they have no magic healing, and they can't fly.

Whatever fixes Iron Lore may have in store for player characters, I can't imagine that every PC should expect to be able to knock a dragon out of the sky with his bow.

If the "fix" is a story fix-- that is, the GM creates a cave nearby for the PCs to retreat, or they get some friendly magical assistance to help them fly, or defeat the dragon's DR, or its breath weapon, or what have you, then that doesn't really address the system issues of playing any monster directly out of any d20 book.

Every low-magic game makes certain assumptions about the GMs ability to properly manage the genre-- or, "style of game" -- so I'm sort of back on my heels again. While I said earlier that it seems mearls has moved what system elements he could out from under that umbrella of story, I'm still left waiting for this silver bullet of game design.

I recently ran a low-magic adventure with a dragon as the final villain. I allowed the PCs to assault the dragon in its lair, and eventually they prevailed, despite having no magic weapons-- and despite me not having Iron Lore at my fingertips.

Wulf

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

The warrior could try and run and duck for cover as the dragon tries to firebreath him until he reaches more advantageous terrain, then leaps off a cliff or something onto the dragon's back and kills it up there. Wouldn't that work and still match the style of Howard or Lieber?

Yes, it would.

So... What's the LA for "advantageous terrain" or "a conveniently proximate cliff?"

Perhaps that's the exact fix that Iron Lore provides-- spend a "fate point" to create story elements when and where you need them; cooperative storytelling.

Not only would that be Pretty Cool, it would be exactly the sort of thing I'd expect Monte to be involved with.


Wulf