Iron Lore: Malhavoc's Surprise?

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

If he doesn't "fix" the dragon's ability to fly (as just the easiest of examples), then the dragon will still prove too difficult for its CR.

If the dragon is able to retreat to the skies until its breath weapon is ready to go again, he will crush the PCs. They can't bypass its DR (a system element mearls has already said he has not changed), they have no magic weapons, they have no magic healing, and they can't fly.

Whatever fixes Iron Lore may have in store for player characters, I can't imagine that every PC should expect to be able to knock a dragon out of the sky with his bow.

Well, I get why the Low-Magic Flying Dragon Delimma, hereafter referred to as LMFDD or ElMer FuDD, makes an excellent tactical problem for a low-magic game it seems to me that at least part of the problem as it's being presented is one of genre expectations.

That is, that on a certain level part of Elmer Fudd's CR differential is predicated on the idea that by the definition of the genres in question Elmer Fudd will be much tougher for a Low Magic setting and easier for a RAW system.

So that if an party was able to penetrate Fudd's DR, had an analog to magic healing, and had some ability to compensate for flight than that party would not be LM.

Since LM has a broader genre definition I am not certain that this is necessarilly the case. Basicly, LM as we use it locally essentially means without magic items/fire and forget, and that seems to be the thrust of IL.

But we have no assurances that IL won't, for instance, provide a means of bypassing DR - through abilities that ignore it as a result of maneuvers ala the Oathsworn of AE for instance - or remove the necessary advantage of magical healing - through improved mundane means or a slightly altered damage system, the latter of which would seem to chime in on earlier comments on the hit point fragility of high level characters that IL is attempting to address - or provide new ranged combat options that make bow shots a far more effective means of fighting flying opponents.

I would also suspect, given hints earlier in this thread, that IL messes with the way Saving Throws are calculated or even function for its classes. Which could, concievably, also do something to alleviate the breath weapon and lack of healing problems, as might the DR incorporated into the new armor rules.

I guess my question is, then, if IL deals with Elmer Fudd through means of bypassing draconic damage resistance, adding some sort of beefed up damage resistance for PCs, and better ranged combat options is it still LM? Does it still fit the genre? Even if it doesn't actually use flight spells, magic weapons, and healing potions? If not, can I still think its cool or even cooler for producing a hybrid? Like the way I think 28 Days Later is a cool Zombie flick even though fast zombies are, in general, a blasphemous invention?

 

[Plane Sailing]

Heh... I'll withhold judgement on that.

No, wait. I won't. Mike: Don't do it.

If Mike is limited in what he can say at the moment, there doesn't seem to be any point in -not- witholding judgement until we can see how they have tackled the problem.

I've seen plenty of people in plenty of circumstances rant and rail against things which turned out to be fine when they were actually released.

I know how much you have wrestled with the issues of allowing characters to interact with MM creatures in a rare-magic environment and I can understand your professional interest in a claim that a solution has been found to the related problems (heck, I'm interested for exactly the same reasons).

One of the Grim Tales elements that I didn't notice initially was the ability to spend an action point to ignore DR for a round/blow/something. I can think of at least two other ways in which IL might give higher level characters an ability to get through DR apart from that. I can imagine potential solutions to a number of other issues in the "dragon in a field" scenario - but until Mike is able to tell us more (or, more likely, the book is released) we just won't know.

Cheers

 

[TerraDave]

I should have just let this dragon example go away...but they did mention it on the webpage...I guess we will see in 5 months

 

[Plane Sailing]

I used to love the film "Jack the Giant Killer"

http://movies.yahoo.com/shop?d=hv&cf=info&id=1800148768

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0001BKBFC/002-6232869-5195268?v=glance

Jack was a master of climbing aboard giants and dragons and hacking at them from their backs. For me this was a classic fantasy staple. I'd love to have a PC that took down a dragon by getting onto its back and hacking away

 

[DaveMage]

With the emphasis on Iron Lore and Arcana Evolved, is Malhavoc through with traditional D&D supplements/adventures (after the Rogueish book)?

 

[Tolen Mar]

I'm likely the odd one out here, but its okay by me if the warrior vs. dragon in the field fails. Mr. Mearls has repeatedly gone on about story elements vs. system elements. And one of the things that always bugged me about dragons in dnd is that any group of adventurers can walk up to a great Wyrm and hack it to pieces.

Say what? Is this deities and demigods?

What happened to the tales about the dragon being a massive, clever, hard to kill monster? Who in their right mind stands solo in a field and challenges a dragon? Even in movies that star dragonslayers, it often takes a small army of them. You have to find its lair, you have to find ways to ambush it and limit its abilities, and the whole time you are doing that, the beast is outthinking you. Lets face it, dragons in DnD are very intelligent creatures, they arent going to sit around and let you trap it.

Now, if you make that lone warrior Arnold Swarzenneger (however the heck thats spelled), and let him have a couple of weeks to set traps ala 'Predator' he might be able to overcome. But just like in that movie, a properly played dragon becomes deadly the moment he steps up and tries to handle it one on one.

And yes, I am aware that myth and legend says it can be done, but its always been ambush or a very well placed shot using information gained from another source. Bard would never have killed smaug if Bilbo hadnt spotted the weak spot, and Sigurd hid out waiting for the thing to walk over the hole he was in to get the sweet spot in the belly. Neither of those examples is a lone warrior out in the open.

Now, for the flip side of the argument. Dragon notwithstanding...I really look forward to seeing this. One of the things that bugs me the most is that regardless of what class I build, its my gear that defeats the monsters, not my character. If Iron Lore really fixes that, Im golden.

 

[BlackMoria]

With the emphasis on Iron Lore and Arcana Evolved, is Malhavoc through with traditional D&D supplements/adventures (after the Rogueish book)?

If I recall correctly, this question was asked of Monte on his forums. The answer is that Malhavoc will continue to publish traditional D&D supplements/adventures.

 

[DaveMage]

If I recall correctly, this question was asked of Monte on his forums. The answer is that Malhavoc will continue to publish traditional D&D supplements/adventures.

Good to hear - thanks!

 

[Nuclear Platypus]

Well here's a few ideas to deal with Elmer Fudd:

A fantasy version of the Fastball Special (a former staple of X-Men comics)

Called shots to the dragon's wing(s) forcing it to land (remember Council of Wyrms and their dragonslayers?)

Massive crossbows / ballista / harpoons could impale the dragon so either it can be pulled down (not bloody likely) or at least leashed

Spear and magic helmet (much better against wabbits)

 

[Staffan]

But we have no assurances that IL won't, for instance, provide a means of bypassing DR - through abilities that ignore it as a result of maneuvers ala the Oathsworn of AE for instance

I think that having common abilities like those of the Oathsworn, that can penetrate X points of DR (based on level), is a very likely way of handling DR penetration in IL. The only thing we do know is that it won't be like the monk's ki strike.