Iron Lore: Malhavoc's Surprise?

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

Well, now, let's not get too down on DnD. I think the number of different well realized settings that have come out of the game, let alone been inspired by it, are an able testament to the game's skill at creating fantasy settings.

But I certainly agree that the style of play among the community and game, for some time now, has put too little emphasis on skill points which are among the coolest points of 3.5. I'm very very happy about how much Iron Lore is doing to bring them out into the spot light.

One thing I've often seen in games is that they treat skills like a problem since there are so many ways to boost their modifiers.

I often think that one of the unspoken justifications for fighters getting such horrible skill points for what is essentially supposed to be the most generic class is that the system assumes their stats are going to get jacked up through the roof.

Which is fine, except that it hijacks any number of character concepts especially the idea that the fighter is some sort of generic character class. Instead he ends up being some sort of sheltered uber gladiator who looks like he never leaves the compound except to run at and kill whatever his handlers point toward.

Mutants and Masterminds is far far worse, so don't think I don't love the fighter for how much flexibility he does have, or that there aren't plenty of good reasons for the fighter to have such low skills.

I'm just glad to see a system come along and develop along the lines that make everyone having plenty of skills make more sense.

 

[Mac Callum]

Which is fine, except that it hijacks any number of character concepts especially the idea that the fighter is some sort of generic character class. Instead he ends up being some sort of sheltered uber gladiator who looks like he never leaves the compound except to run at and kill whatever his handlers point toward.

I find this quote amusing.

I think you're right about the assumptions. Without spells and magical items to boost Skill totals DM's won't feel the need to make DC's insanely high just to be challenging. It will allow people with Skill totals in the 5-8 range to still do some cool stuff if they're allowed to roll a couple times/ take 10-20.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

I find this quote amusing.

I think you're right about the assumptions. Without spells and magical items to boost Skill totals DM's won't feel the need to make DC's insanely high just to be challenging. It will allow people with Skill totals in the 5-8 range to still do some cool stuff if they're allowed to roll a couple times/ take 10-20.

Actually, I think that a lot of systems were keeping skill checks artificially low, when they're at their proper levels that's when you get to do stunts.

 

[JohnSnow]

That's what's really disappointing with the direction D&D is going. D&D continues to become morre and more inbred. Rather than designing a game that will appeal to newcomers who come in with visions of the LotR films or Conan comics in their head, they opt for this completely self-contained magic-intensive system that doesn't bear any resemblence to any kind of heroic fantasy that anyone might be familiar with.

To me, this is the key point about what Mearls is trying to do. Personally, I think D&D needs to take a step back and away from uber-fantasy, and try embracing its origins. I know that lots of people LOVE high fantasy, but to my way of thinking, high fantasy should be added on to, not replace, good action fantasy. I'm as big a fan of Fahfrd and the Grey Mouser, Conan and the rest as Mike Mearls. I know that (Eberron creator) Keith Baker is a huge fan of Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire as I am. And I know that Andy Collins has experimented with various ways to moderate the amount of magical "impact" on his D&D games.

I guess I'm just of the mindset that prefers magic as "spice" not the main course. Yes, that's partially because I just enjoy straight medieval action. It's also partially because no matter how much I enjoy magic, a little flavor goes a lot further than all magic all the time (and emulates the source material that got me interested in gaming a lot better).

I've gotten flack on the Wizards boards many times for my contention that D&D should be more like the novels that inspired it. Despite that, I stand by the assertion that the further you get from those novels, the more problematic a game you're creating. Sure, it may still be fun, but I can't "play" Lord of the Rings (or Fahfrd and Grey Mouser, or Conan, or...)

I'm hopeful that Iron Lore will restore some of that "feel" to d20 Fantasy. Even if it means that a high-level PC is "Hiawatha-esque" without any equipment. Personally, I can live with a 20th level archer being able to accomplish things that are hard to imagine in the "real world." However, as long as that high-level archer's abilities feel "legendary" and not "anime," I'll be fine.

 

[bolen]

So if this is a Robert e Howard/George RR martin game It is a must buy.

However if it is a Zena/comic book game with Uber powerful characters I will pass. Unfortunately I could not get into one of the demo games at Gen Con. Perhaps they will open up extra ones at the con (HINT HINT HINT)

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

I'm hopeful that Iron Lore will restore some of that "feel" to d20 Fantasy. Even if it means that a high-level PC is "Hiawatha-esque" without any equipment. Personally, I can live with a 20th level archer being able to accomplish things that are hard to imagine in the "real world." However, as long as that high-level archer's abilities feel "legendary" and not "anime," I'll be fine.

Not a bad take. Though I don't really know that anime and legendary and in opposition to each other.

What I really like is that it feels so granular. That you can break fights up into specific actions and abilities and really run with them and interpret them.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

However, as long as that high-level archer's abilities feel "legendary" and not "anime," I'll be fine.

Or wuxia. Don't need more wuxia in D&D either.

 

[Erekose13]

So if this is a Robert e Howard/George RR martin game It is a must buy.

However if it is a Zena/comic book game with Uber powerful characters I will pass. Unfortunately I could not get into one of the demo games at Gen Con. Perhaps they will open up extra ones at the con (HINT HINT HINT)

Monte has replied on his boards that there will be demos at the Malhavoc table for the whole con.

 

[Azgulor]

So if this is a Robert e Howard/George RR martin game It is a must buy.

However if it is a Zena/comic book game with Uber powerful characters I will pass.

And therin lies my problem. When I first heard about Iron Lore, I interpreted it as the former - which would make emulating fantasy as depicted in novels and movies much more attainable. However, upon closer inspection, and especially after the "Arrow Ladder" ability of the Archer, it looks like it will be much closer to the latter.

I want to play Conan style swords-n-sorcery. I want to play gritty Song of Fire & Ice drama, action, and tragedy. I don't want to play Zena, Hercules, or Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon.

So I'll be satisfied with my Conan RPG and anxiously await the Game of Thrones and Thieves' World RPGs. But Iron Lore isn't on my MUST BUY list anymore.

Azgulor

 

[JohnSnow]

And therein lies my problem. When I first heard about Iron Lore, I interpreted it as the former - which would make emulating fantasy as depicted in novels and movies much more attainable. However, upon closer inspection, and especially after the "Arrow Ladder" ability of the Archer, it looks like it will be much closer to the latter.

Y'know, I find it REALLY hysterical that people are jumping to conclusions based on the archer's "Arrow Ladder" ability. For starters, it's an ability that MOST characters aren't going to have before 13th level (probably 15th!). It's not even available until 11th, and I imagine most characters will be more attracted to either one of the other sniper shot abilities or an additional deadeye shot ability instead. So at 15th level, is this ability REALLY that Xena/comic book-y? From the class preview:

When you make your attack, you may spend 1 aim token for every 5 feet of the creature's height to create a "ladder" of arrows. You perforate the target with projectiles that you and your allies can then use as rungs to climb up the target (Climb check, DC 5). You use 2 arrows per 5 feet of height; completing this attack requires a full-round action. If your attack misses, the "rungs" are spaced too far apart to be usable, or perhaps some of the arrows loosen and fall. You can start an arrow ladder on one round and complete it on the next.

This attack inflicts damage for one ranged attack as normal. If the damage fails to beat an object's hardness, you fail to form the ladder. Your weapon must inflict piercing damage to use this ability. You can choose to create a persistent ladder, or it can fall apart after one use.

So, basically, you can spend an aim token so that the arrows you shoot are stacked on top of each other and you can use them to assist your climb. It doesn't make you "fly" up the wall, and you STILL have to beat the hardness. This is even doable in the "real world." It's just pretty HARD to properly place the arrows. Hardly what I call ridiculous at a level when core D&D is handing out "immovable rods."