Is 3x D&D a rules-heavy system? Is that a good/bad thing?

[GAAAHHH]

Rules-Medium. It's nowhere near the level games like GURPS or Hero, and the added ease of a unified resolution mechanic makes it easier to work with than games with a dozen subsystems. I don't mind the level of complexity, but I think the game would benefit from some simplification in actual gameplay.

GURPS has templates that make character creation (relatively) quick.

It also has the advantage of being easy to improvise (for me. YMMV.) I can't say that about 3.x D&D.

 

[Doug McCrae]

3e is rules-heavy* but does it well. As opposed to Rifts, for example, which does rules-heavy poorly**.


*The d20 system at its heart has an elegant simplicity but is often hidden by the number of modifiers and the 1970s magic system.
**System-wise, at any rate. The fluff has a certain bonkers charm.

 

[jmucchiello]

I'd say 3e is rules-medium. HERO is rules heavy, GURPS is rules heavy, 3e just doesn't rise to their level. It provides a nice middle ground between the two extremes.

I'm going to disagree with this. HERO is much lighter than most versions of D&D. (GURPS is heavy, no doubt.)

Here's why? Everything you need to know to play HERO takes about 300 pages. No matter the genre, no matter the GM, everything you develop for HERO is in those 300 pages. Every magic item, spell, character ability, etc is an example of the rules. And while the writeup for handcuffs can be 200-300 words long, none of those words or phrases introduce new rules. And that is why there is more than just the core book for HERO. The other books just show you how to implement the existing rules to achieve some effect.

In D&D nearly every spell, magic item and class or monster ability introduces new rules. There are hundreds and hundreds of pages of these things for 3e and 2e and probably even 1e. Yes, 3e moved a lot of those rules into a common area (level draining, swallowing whole, conditions, etc) but for each "standard" ability, there are 3 more non-standard ones (barghest advancement, hydras, etc). And each expansion books adds more rules.

You can play both games with just the core set. But whenever you make something up in HERO, you are still playing by the rules. When you make something up in D&D, you are adding or modifying the rules.

 

[Doug McCrae]

It would be interesting to see the dimensions of players vs. GMs here. For me, I'm primarily a GM.

77% GMs

Most recent poll

 

[Greylock]

No, but that was part of the topic question. I'm not obligated to limit the scope of my response to your post.

You are when you are directly replying to me. Must not be a fan of West End Games and D6 systems.






Sorry, I hope you don't think that last bit is directed at you. I was just answering the topic.

 

[Psion]

I'm going to disagree with this. HERO is much lighter than most versions of D&D. (GURPS is heavy, no doubt.)

Here's why? Everything you need to know to play HERO takes about 300 pages. No matter the genre, no matter the GM, everything you develop for HERO is in those 300 pages. Every magic item, spell, character ability, etc is an example of the rules. And while the writeup for handcuffs can be 200-300 words long, none of those words or phrases introduce new rules. And that is why there is more than just the core book for HERO. The other books just show you how to implement the existing rules to achieve some effect.

In D&D nearly every spell, magic item and class or monster ability introduces new rules.

That's really not true. Of 1e and 2e, yes. 3e made a lot more use of common conditions and modifiers and most spells just invoke them.

HERO is effects driven. Which is nice, because they give you the rules to do anything. But you have to put it together yourself. Add rules like power modifiers and frameworks, and then factor in a phase based combat system with a plethora of options... I don't think you can make the case that D&D is heavier than HERO. It's just not credible.

 

[Psion]

You are when you are directly replying to me.

So, you are dictating to me the means by which I may respond to a post?

Sorry, no. If it doesn't look like part of my post pertains to you, but is a reasonable response to the OP, it's a safe assumption to assume that I was responding to the OP. You don't get to browbeat me for daring to use your post as a jumping off point. Well you can, I just won't take it seriously.

 

[Khairn]

3.x is rules heavy.

The existence of systems that are more rules heavy than 3.x does not change the fact that 3.x is, in and of itself, rules heavy. To suggest that it is not, that implies that that person has not played much at the lighter end of the rules spectrum.

Can I ask how you came up with that conclusion?

I personally find the PHB and DMG to be very easy to understand and over-all I consider 3E to be in the mid-range when judging the weight and complexity of its rules.

Now I can make D&D very rule heavy by adding in all the supplements. But as any additional material that I want to include in my game (Unearthed Arcana, PHB II etc) is fully controlled by me it shouldn't count as part of this poll.

As for whether a rule heavy game is a positive or not, that completely resides in the hands of each group and the game they are playing. I've enjoyed both rule-lite (Fudge, Savage World) and rule heavy games (GURPS) equally.

 

[Greylock]

Can I ask how you came up with that conclusion?

Are you asking me, or directing that to the topic in general? I apparently no longer understand how quotes and direct remarks are supposed to be read on the internets.

 

[Herzog]

I think 3.x is math heavy, not rules heavy.

Most of the rules fall back onto the same basic system(s), and only the WotC refusal to provide us with clearly defined boundaries for game concepts such as feats, class abilities, etc. require us to fall back to splatbooks as a source for new options (classes, PrC's and feats). (which, IMHO, is a good market strategy but poor gaming design).

If the system could be improved, it would be by taking some of the elements currently implemented seperate from the basic systems (turn undead....) and 'fold' them into the basic systems.

Having said all that, there are a LOT of rules provided with 3.x, and reducing that to it's basic math is not an easy task.

Herzog