Is 4E charmless?

[The Little Raven]

4e has all the charm that I want to give it, without the rules getting in the way like they did in 3e, or failing to support that charm with solid mechanical underpinnings like BD&D and 2e did.

The way in which the structure has been presented gets my designer juices flowing, because I look for ways to work within that structure while still creating new things that push the limits.

Does 4e have as much charm as 1e? I'd say no.

To me, 1e has the charm of your bizarre uncle that everyone hesitates to invite to family events because he has a tendency to ramble on about the kind of powder he used on his athlete's foot in school back in the 1940s whenever he can. Sure, he might say something interesting, but it's buried within a mountain of long-winded nonsense.

Things like dragonborn have no such excuse.

Yeah, they don't have the "it's tradition" excuse, they have the "people have really wanted dragon-men, as evidence by the bagillion variations that have cropped up since draconians were invented in the 1980s" excuse (aka giving your audience things they want).

 

[Maggan]

Also the new Mini looks and drives better than the old one, and therefore multiplies the coolness of the original.

I love the new Mini. The looks, how it drives, the size. It's my dream car, and it has charmed me.

On to D&D.

I like D&D4e. I like the looks, the new takes on old themes, the ease of play. But it hasn't charmed me like D&D BECMI and D&D3.x did, nor like Planescape did.

It is still the edition our group choose to play. So it has charmed parts of our little band, and looks interesting enough for the rest of us.

It is getting to me though, thanks to the DDI and the Character Builder. Creating PCs for D&D hasn't been this fun for me for years and years. And in the end, that which is fun often charms me.

/M

 

[rounser]

2E's plethora of settings and overwhelming amount of monster manual material really diluted the charm of DnD lore. I mean - Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance taken on their own charming. Taken together and it's, well, market fracturing.

Al-Quadim is my favorite setting of all time, but it's my greatest disappointment in DnD that it's not integrated with anything. That's both the charm and the ugliness of 2e.

4E is the first edition that I feel actually does a great job putting the implied setting first. It takes all the most DnD elements and puts them together into a framework that is at once expansive and coherent.

See, I'd say your argument there is completely bass-ackward - compromising the flavour of a setting for STUPID marketing or kitchen sinking reasons when the implied setting they chose is as quirky as all getup, and wouldn't fit most settings if you forced it with a crowbar. The "Eberron kitchen sink method" which is now seemingly the default (poor FR, RIP) is anathema to D&D worldbuilding, I find it hard to describe how intellectually cowardly it is. I understand why they might do it - TSR tried the purist way and it split the market, but that doesn't make it's reverse right either. Just a different flavour of "wrong, try again".

I know you want to wave the banner for 4E but this really is the living end.

 

[The Little Raven]

4E is the first edition that I feel actually does a great job putting the implied setting first. It takes all the most DnD elements and puts them together into a framework that is at once expansive and coherent.

Agreed. I really enjoy the "Greatest Hits of D&D" feeling the implied setting gives. Since we started playing, we've dug into any book we want (2e, 3e, 4e) and sprinkled things into our campaigns without regard for where they came from initially, and it all blends together beautifully.

 

[Scribble]

I think it depends on what you consider "charm."

My parents had a VW beetle when they were first married. My dad said the thing had bad gas milleage, it was drafty, had very little room inside, and generally unconfortable. He also said at times he missed that car more than any other car they ever owned...

When I brought up those problems, plus the fact that the seatbelts in the thing were more likely to kill you then save you, lack of things like anti-lock brakes, airbags, good ventilation, and generally anything you'd expect in a modern car- He always said things like "yeah that was part of the charm..."

I think because of those problems, and the fact that he and my mom overcame them together, that he will forever see it as having "charm." The problems themselves become a symbol of something bigger.

The same is true with D&D in my opinion. The charm comes from the weird way things were written in earlier editions... The weird rules put in because someone along the way thought they made more "sense" the random rules that made NO sense, the collection of styles and methods all cobled together in a random way, combined with the fact that we as gamers overcame those obstacles and had fun despite them.

Now that 4e seems to want to fix a lot of those issues, and make things a bit more standardized, and modern, a lot of people see it as not having charm.

I'm sure 4e will have it's own host of issues and problems that somewhere along the lines will be corrected by the next version. And when we fans of 4e get asked how we could play the game with it's various issues and problems we'll simply say: "Was part oft he charm kid. Now get off my lawn."

 

[Fifth Element]

If by "charmless", you mean "Awesome!", then yes.

That's the problem. Ask 100 people what makes a game "charming" and you get 107 different answers. At least.

I am reminded of a quote, but can't think of it right now. Maybe google will help.

 

[Fifth Element]

I find it hard to describe how intellectually cowardly it is.

I know you want to wave the banner for 4E but this really is the living end.

...

 

[Spatula]

The "Eberron kitchen sink method" which is now seemingly the default (poor FR, RIP)

Right, because FR wasn't a everything-including-the-kitchen-sink fantasy world...

 

[Mallus]

Right, because FR wasn't a everything-including-the-kitchen-sink fantasy world...

Or Arduin. Or the Known World. Or Greyhawk.

 

[Raven Crowking]

I think it depends on what you consider "charm."

This.

I am no fan of 4e; it has little (but some) charm for me. But what I consider to be charming and what another person consider to be charming are two different things.

Ever know a parent that considers his child charming, even when that child is throwing the mother of all tantrums? Depending upon what you like, any game system can seem just as irritating......or just as charming.


RC