D&D 4E Is 4E doing it for you?

[Fenes]

See, I'm all about the in-character role-playing, funny voices and all. I have trouble imagination how a map and minis could provide a significant distraction from me from enjoying my friends role-playing their (oddball) characters (or my own). YMMV, and obviously does.

I never used minis in an RPG. Minis take me instantly into "strategy game" mode. The bird's eye view, the counting of squares, the way people start moving according to mechanics, going by maps instead description, all that hurts my immersion. I don't see characters, I see pieces on a game board, and it takes an effort to look past that.

I'd rather spend that effort on other things that enhance my game.

 

[IanArgent]

I spend about one to two hours per game session preparing for it. That includes typing up what happened in the last session. Using modules would slow me down a lot.

No, I mean I read the bit I'm expecting to run from H1 the day I'm expecting to run it. I still haven't read the whole thing. As close to 0-prep as I'm likely to get with a module in 4E.

Next up, see if I can run a fulfilling adventure using p43, the generic monster stats from the DMG, some cheetos and Dr. Pepper. (that will be a bit longer, I'm not that comfortable with the system yet, but I'm already more comfortable that I was with 3.5)

 

[Fenes]

No, I mean I read the bit I'm expecting to run from H1 the day I'm expecting to run it. I still haven't read the whole thing. As close to 0-prep as I'm likely to get with a module in 4E.

Next up, see if I can run a fulfilling adventure using p43, the generic monster stats from the DMG, some cheetos and Dr. Pepper. (that will be a bit longer, I'm not that comfortable with the system yet, but I'm already more comfortable that I was with 3.5)

If I'd not type down my campaign chronicle I could run the game with about as close to zero prep time as you metion. Modules would slow me down.

 

[Vague Jayhawk]

I have to admit that 4e is not really doing it for me. No specific reason - I just don't like it very much.

But that is fine. It frees up my time for other great games such as GURPS, Savage Worlds and Traveler.

 

[D'karr]

4e is definitely doing it for my group and I.

I've been running 3.X since it came out. And I would consider myself to have a pretty good degree of system mastery. Even with a good degree of system mastery the preparation time as you go up in level gets longer and longer. That is not just an opinion, that is real life experience.

This past weekend I ran a pre-written module (3.X) for a group of friends. The module is designed for 10-12 level characters and it included several encounters at those levels. The adventure provides all the stat blocks for the creatures printed right in there so I don't have to use the book. The module is also designed to run in about a 4-5 hour time frame.

My preparation time for the 5 hours of game time was about 4 hours. I had to look up specific feats for creatures. Each creature had multiple feats that are not described in their stat block. I had to look up specific spells for clerics, druids, and wizards. None of those are described in their stat block. Then I had to look up specific spells that are spell-like abilities of a creature, also not explained on the stat block. On top of that I had to look up how a specific maneuver works (sundering) and then I had to look up in a completely different location to find out how (sundering a magical item) works. I had to do all this to be able to run the game without constantly having to look these things up during play.

I had a great time running the game, when we played. But I had absolutely no fun while I was doing all this "research".

The previous weekend I ran a 4e game for a different group. The adventure was also pre-written and designed to run in a 4-5 hour time frame. Once again all the stat blocks are provided in the adventure.

My preparation time for that 4e game was about 40 minutes (Total). I read the adventure, 40 minutes, that's it. When we played, I had the following things with me: the adventure, my PHB, the DM's Screen and the Monster Manual.

I did not have to look in the PHB, or MM once to find out what the creatures did. It was clearly written in the stat block. I did not have to ever look in the PHB, every single thing that I needed was right on the DM's Screen. At one time I decided to add two additional creatures to an encounter that was turning into a cake-walk for the party. I opened up the MM and ran the additional creatures right from the book without additional preparation.

The game was a lot of fun, but what was best was that I did not have to spend an inordinate amount of time figuring out how to run the encounters.

Both groups had fun playing, and I had fun running both games. But the 3e game took a lot more of my time in preparation, whereas the 4e game did not. So yes, 4e is definitely doing it for me.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Both groups had fun playing, and I had fun running both games. But the 3e game took a lot more of my time in preparation, whereas the 4e game did not. So yes, 4e is definitely doing it for me.

What was the level of the 4e module? I noticed you left that out. How long do you have to prep for a 3e module of the same level?

I agree that 3e has an inordinate amount of prep time. IMHO, prep time should be (roughly) 70% coming up with cool ideas, 20% putting those ideas on paper, and 10% deciding how to express those ideas mechanically. 3e has the 70% on deciding how to express those ideas mechanically, which I dislike.

I am not certain, however, that your anecdote demonstrates that a 4e module of the same level as a 3e module requires less prep time to run well. At least, not on the basis of your post.


RC

 

[Irda Ranger]

I've recently decided (after playing it a little more) that "No, it's not."

The two main reasons, roughly, are:

1. Too boardgame.
Feels like "Magic: The Boardgame", rather than a pen & paper RPG.

This is D&D independent, since AD&D, Marvel, Alternity and Mage: The Awakening have the "pen & paper RPG feel" that 4E appears to be missing. It's possible to RP with 4E, obviously, but that's not a great argument. It's also possible to reskin Chess or Monopoly rules as an RPG ("I attack your pawn to avenge my father!") but that doesn't make them well suited to the task. The concentration on the tactical battlemat takes the focus away from the shared imagined space of the game world.

It's just a little too far down the continuum towards Small-Unit-Fantasy-Wargaming to be something I want to play on a regular basis. As this is a matter of personal taste, it's probably similar to why I don't shop at Games Workshop.


2. Too "kewl powers."
I don't like that phrase, but the Martial classes aren't martial enough for me (too magical feeling), and the Barbarian released today really drives home the point. Conan has no place in this game. Bo9S was a really cool "Everyone's a Jedi" variant on D&D, but I'm not down with that as the default for my worlds and campaigns. I prefer Tracy Hickman's take on Sturm Brightblade to (as yet theoretical) John Woo's take on the same character. Matter of taste.

------


I'm not upset that I bought 4E or anything. There are a lot of good ideas in it. I'll definitely be taking the idea of Spells vs. Rituals with me, for instance. I like some of the Cosmology and the Alignment changes are inspirational (even if I won't use them as written). But as nice as some of the window dressing is, the core of the system just doesn't seem to be working. C'est la Vie

 

[D'karr]

What was the level of the 4e module? I noticed you left that out. How long do you have to prep for a 3e module of the same level?

I agree that 3e has an inordinate amount of prep time. IMHO, prep time should be (roughly) 70% coming up with cool ideas, 20% putting those ideas on paper, and 10% deciding how to express those ideas mechanically. 3e has the 70% on deciding how to express those ideas mechanically, which I dislike.

I am not certain, however, that your anecdote demonstrates that a 4e module of the same level as a 3e module requires less prep time to run well. At least, not on the basis of your post.


RC

Nope, the encounters on the 10-12 level 3e adventure did not have any creature above CR 10. The encounters were built with several lower level creatures (CR8-9) some of them as low as CR 5.

The creatures on the 4e adventure ran a much wider level gap and in terms of level were higher than those for the 3e adventure. The piece for the 4e that I was running was level 9-10.

So no, preparing for a higher level adventure in 4e is still comparably less work than for a 3e adventure.

 

[IanArgent]

If I'd not type down my campaign chronicle I could run the game with about as close to zero prep time as you metion. Modules would slow me down.

Fair enough. I never had that feel from 3E though (and to be fair, I don't yet have enough of a handle of 4e to be able to say I will be able to do it in 4E either.)

 

[D'karr]

I am not certain, however, that your anecdote demonstrates that a 4e module of the same level as a 3e module requires less prep time to run well. At least, not on the basis of your post.


RC

Since I didn't have the modules with me when I wrote the first part, I wanted to make sure that I was accurate.

The significant encounters in the 3e adventure were:
EL 10+ (almost 11)
EL 10
EL 11

The significant encounters in the 4e adventure were:
EL 11
EL 10
EL 10
EL 13

So I still stand by my initial assessment that preparing for 4e is significantly less taxing than doing so for 3e.