D&D 4E Is 4E winning you or losing you?

[AllisterH]

WH40K marines have had oversized shoulderpads, blades, gloves, etc. since the beginning. I understand it on minis where the piece is an inch high and needs to be break-resistant.


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I tend to associate the "new art" with WH40K. Things like "lots of ornaments on their clothes, oversized weapons" and the general "busy/cluttered look" of what I think you're referring to as Warhammer derived.

I mean, to my knowledge, there are really only TWO anime characters that wield oversized weapons.

Guts, of the Berserk manfa (and even in that manga, people comment about how Guts is overcompensating with his sword)

and the original Buster-sword wielder. Cloud.

As for the sizing issue, er, didn't we do this discussion back pre-3E on rec.games.frp.dnd (It always comes up it seems)

Here's a good link to pictures of actual greatswords and yes, they WERE taller than men.

 

[The Lemon Merchant]

I wasn't terribly thrilled about 4e and while some of the stuff coming out is intriguing, I remain a firm 3.5 supporter. I'll admit that I'll likely use things out of 4e - I particularly like the "campaign world" that they are hinting at - though it will all likely be converted (if needed) back to my 3.5 homebrew.

 

[howandwhy99]

You do realize that my entire post was itself an edition wars metaphor, right? Someone's already agreed above with the point made therein that perhaps the designers of older editions weren't just "primitive," backwards designers, but that perhaps their design decisions made sense given the problems they were trying to solve.

What are you talking about? I can count on one hand the number of people who have tried to improve D&D since it originated.

Or is that the number of people who haven't attempted to improve D&D?

 

[apoptosis]

Losing me definitely.

The enjoyment of D&D was basically in the nostalgia of the game. The more they kill the sacred cows the more it becomes less like the D&D I am familiar with.

Paradoxically they do not seem to really be changing the basic structure of the game enough to really interest me.

I have realized that really they are focused on turning it into a combat simulation system with a a skin of a fantasy genre.

Now I know it originally was a wargame that had a skin of a fantasy genre (complete with classes really being different types of units). But as time went by it seemed to become more of a roleplaying game particularly in 2E. In 3E it seemed to go back in the direction of wargaming and in 4E with its focus on roles and such it seems to really go back full circle to units with a fantasy skin. Basically a combat simulation system with a fantasy genre.

For me an updated combat simulation system is not something that interests me; while I think they will do a great job with balancing characters in combat, that is not of interest to me specifically. My interests in roleplaying lie in a different direction.

Now things could be very different when the final product is released so my current opinions could be revised later on.

 

[Stormtower]

IMHO more to a sweep kick, then taking your teeth out with a curb stomp, after which wotc offers you a pair of dentures.

I cannot think of how to phrase it more eloquently than that, sir.

 

[Barastrondo]

WH40K marines have had oversized shoulderpads, blades, gloves, etc. since the beginning. I understand it on minis where the piece is an inch high and needs to be break-resistant.

Yep. Which is why I find the claims of "oversized weapons are anime" to be missing a few key data points from other fantasy media.

From my perspective it doesn't make them powerful at a glance, it makes them goofy; disproportionate to a ridiculous degree. Like little guys that drive super-sized lifted trucks, compensating for other... shortcomings. These absurdly huge weapons and super-saiyan power attacks are juvenile power-fantasy dross.

Yeah, I know. I saw this one piece of art, it was one guy in hell fighting against a whole bunch of devils. It's just not the same game since they started indulging juvenile power fantasies like that one.

Seriously, I honestly can't think of an edition of D&D where the art was taken as holy writ by the players. Nobody I hang out with decided that with the advent of 3e, elves would suddenly start looking more like Mialee, or that the armor illustrations in the PHB were accurate descriptions of what said armor looked like. The 3e/3.5e Monster Manuals were filled with illustrations that I would not use to describe given critters (dire animals, harpies, minotaurs, manticores, half the dragons, etc., etc.). I totally understand why art direction choices can be a turn-off, believe you me. But it totally failed to stop the people I played with from picturing something else in their heads.

If you want to play super-hero fantasy, play Exalted, but I would prefer D&D to stay in the realm of mere heroic fantasy.

I can hardly fault WotC for not saying "Hey, go play Exalted, don't buy our stuff" to a potential interested customer. I mean hey, it'd be great for me and mine if they did, but I can maybe see why they aren't.

 

[DaveMage]

I wasn't terribly thrilled about 4e and while some of the stuff coming out is intriguing, I remain a firm 3.5 supporter. I'll admit that I'll likely use things out of 4e - I particularly like the "campaign world" that they are hinting at - though it will all likely be converted (if needed) back to my 3.5 homebrew.

Have you tried the Wilderlands setting from Necromancer Games (and originally Judges Guild)?

Very similar premise...

 

[IanArgent]

OK - here's the deal. The rules cannot restrict RP. To a certain extend, I want a rules set that is a conflict simulator with a setting skin - that means that effort will be put into balancing the rules for conflict (which for 4ed seems to be more than combat). As a DMU I can handle the roleplaying side; but need rules for combat (unless I'm playing a diceless game).

 

[apoptosis]

OK - here's the deal. The rules cannot restrict RP. To a certain extend, I want a rules set that is a conflict simulator with a setting skin - that means that effort will be put into balancing the rules for conflict (which for 4ed seems to be more than combat). As a DMU I can handle the roleplaying side; but need rules for combat (unless I'm playing a diceless game).

And that is what i believe 4E will be giving you.

I want nice rules for conflict (not necessarily combat) resolution and rules that can enhance the roleplaying and story elements that I find rewarding.

I do not think 4E will provide these things and frankly since many people seem not to want them and prefer a combat simulator system that is probably in WOTCs best interest.

 

[Mouseferatu]

I want nice rules for conflict (not necessarily combat) resolution and rules that can enhance the roleplaying and story elements that I find rewarding.

They've already said that there are going to be more robust "social challenge" rules. I'm not sure if that's the sort of "conflict but not combat" scenario you had in mind, but it'll be there.