Is 4th edition getting soft? - edited for friendly content :)

[Psion]

I agree it's a good mantra, but it can easily be taken too far. After all, under that logic, the designers could put a monster in the game that instantly kills every PC in the party with no save before initiative is even rolled. After all, you don't have to use it, right?

Options are great, but you have to be able to strike a balance somewhere.

So, striking a balance = removing something you don't like but that I quite clearly find beneficial to a game?

A monster that instantly kills the party is not something many DMs would realistically want or need. You are being preposterous.

 

[HeinorNY]

So, facing down a lich wielding save-or-die spells you know could snuff your life out at any moment is not heroic? To me, forging on when the risk is great is the essence of heroic.

I do agree such things are best left for crucial encounters. What this says to me is that bodaks and catoblepas suck, not "save or die" sucks.

The mantra of 3e was "options not restrictions." For reasons similar to the above, I never put "instant death poison" traps in my games... because I thought people who did were silly to do so, and then complain about how save or die sucks. It's like the classic groucho marx joke "Doc, it hurts when I do that." "Don't do that!"

But yeah, I like those moments when I can make the players feel as if their character's lives could be snuffed out at any time. I want the option.

Options not restrictions. That was the wise mantra of 3e. And from the way things are looking, the wisdom that 4e lacks.

Rules in the core books are the core rules, not options.
And based on what we couldn't call the rules in 4e "options"?
If you call some of the core rules of 3e "options" because you can take them away if you wish, you can also call the 4e core rules option, because we can change them the same way, introducing anything you wish to make your game better, don't you think?

If save or die spells are for some reason called "options" than I'd rather see them in some Unearthed Arcana books, not in the core books. Then they'll be real options. If you want your D&D game to be extreme, just add those optional save-or-die rules.
You can also give only one HD to your 20 level PCs too, they will be even more heroic. What about no magic items to forge super heroic characters? No level up, all characters being lvl 1 commoners and you'll have über heroes!! Nerf Pride!

Considering that one of the former 3E designers created a whole new player's handbook without any save or die spell, I hope 4E designers turn them into real optional rules, in a future book, not in the core books.

 

[Arkhandus]

Heres the thing. At high levels, MOOKS are throwing save or die effects. A bodak is a one round speed bump for a 15th level party, yet if it jumps out of some bushes, it forces everyone to pass a DC 15 save or die. The wizard is likely packing around a +10... meaning a still signifcant chance of death from an otherwise meaningless challenge. Compare that to the damage that an 8th level human fighter can hope to deal against a 15th level party (ie, none), and you'll see why its a bit of an issue.

That's a problem with the Fighter, though. If it were an 8th-level Warblade, they'd be Emerald Razor-ing the party's Fighter with a touch attack + Power Attack and Weapon Specialization, hitting for a not-insignificant bit of damage. Not too bad for a mook, but not very impressive compared to what the party's higher-level warriors should be able to do in return.

And at upper levels you've got to be running around with Death Ward, Contingency, or some means of scouting that doesn't put you in immediate danger. Else you're insufficiently prepared for the kind of dangers a great hero has to overcome. If 20th-level play is just a scaled-up version of 1st-level play, there's something seriously wrong.

You didn't go from chump with his grandpappy's rusty old longsword to renowned wielder the legendary +5 vorpal longsword Dreadfang just so you would be strong enough to face down Ugg-Magug, Paragon Ogre of Nuttin' Speshul, bane of the Epic Hobo Quarter in the City of Union.

 

[Reynard]

I agree it's a good mantra, but it can easily be taken too far. After all, under that logic, the designers could put a monster in the game that instantly kills every PC in the party with no save before initiative is even rolled. After all, you don't have to use it, right?

Options are great, but you have to be able to strike a balance somewhere.

And this, of course, is exactly the ame thing as a medusa or finger of death.

 

[HeinorNY]

And BTW, when someone consider that some rules are somehow special, or should not be used all the time but in particular cases story-wise, then this rules should not be in the core books.

 

[Reynard]

And BTW, when someone consider that some rules are somehow special, or should not be used all the time but in particular cases story-wise, then this rules should not be in the core books.

Like wish?

 

[Psion]

If save or die spells are for some reason called "options" than I'd rather see them in some Unearthed Arcana books, not in the core books. Then they'll be real options. If you want your D&D game to be extreme, just add those optional save-or-die rules.
You can also give only one HD to your 20 level PCs too, they will be even more heroic. What about no magic items to forge super heroic characters? No level up, all characters being lvl 1 commoners and you'll have über heroes!! Nerf Pride!

Ah, aren't excluded middles great rhetorical fun for the whole family?

 

[Bishmon]

Seems people might be missing something that was brought to my attention recently about all the save or die-ness

If you have condition tracks and hit points blah blah and you no longer roll saving throws because the spellcaster is rolling to "beat" your "static" "magical" defense... and that spellcaster happens to be higher level than the PC because he is the "BBG" and has all the appropriate feats for "improved crits"... just like the PCs do... it is virtually the SAME as Save or die.

See, I don't mind that. If the BBEG is a higher level than my PC and has focused his abilities on dealing out lethal amounts of damage at the expense of getting other abilities, I'm fine with that. He's the BBEG, he should be easily able to have that sense of lethality about him. I should expect a battle that's going to be tough, but reasonable, if I approach the battle smartly.

The problem I see with 3E is that Bob the Average Wizard also has that same lethality about him, not because he's a higher level than my PC or because he's focused his abilities in any way, but merely because he was smart enough to pick a couple save-or-die spells. Even if I've got a 75% chance to save against his save-or-dies, odds are that within four save-or-dies, I'm going to be dead. Not because I tried challenging someone out of my league, or because I was caught while weakened, or because I approached the battle incorrectly, but just because odds quickly caught up to me. That's not fun. Not to me, at least.

 

[Psion]

How about him being able to snuff out the life of the heroes because of his mighty damaging powers that cause very high damage? Seeing as hitpoints were always meant to be a combined abstraction of combat endurance, some kind of dodging the killing blow, all-time evasion, real hardness, parrying, blocking, heroic guts... What's the point of having heroic abilities to last in combat if one simply circumvents this and kills you simply on a lucky/unlucky dice?

There are creatures that will slice through your HP in a single hit. That's functionally equivalent to "save or die." (Indeed, note what happened to harm and disintegrate in 3.5.)

To me, the scope of these effects have varying psychological impacts that can be used to make a gripping game. If players are taking little or know damage, the stress or fear of loss is minimal (which is fine... there is a time to make the players feel like they are the awesomest, and you can't have them lurking within an inch of their life every battle.) A monumental battle in which, over the course of a few rounds, all the the PCs are within a strike or two of going down, is more tense. An opponent that has you on this footing immediately is a final option that can be occasionally resorted to. That's the niche save-or-die fills, and it's an important part of the DM's palette AFAIAC.

 

[Reynard]

Not because I tried challenging someone out of my league, or because I was caught while weakened, or because I approached the battle incorrectly, but just because odds quickly caught up to me. That's not fun. Not to me, at least.

See, i just don't get it. i would much rather have a game where the players say, "Oh, crap, a wizard! Take cover!" and think their way through the battle than one in which they say, "Oh look, a wizard! Let's see if he has some wands!" and just rush pell-mell in because they know he's got, at worst, a lightning bolt.