D&D 5E Is 5e the Least-Challenging Edition of D&D?

[Lanefan]

Level drain and ability drain are just a really REALLY obnoxious mechanic filled with fiddly bits. And most often they're just rendered moot by having the right spell. Like the Clay Golem's max HP drain. You either have Greater Restoration or you go back into town and spend money on it... it's not really challenging, just punishing the tank for taking hits, thus doing its job...

One might say that if fixing it costs money then it's had a useful effect (depending how rich your parties are).

Ability drain in 3e and forward is fiddly in that there's so many skills etc. tied to abilities. A strange design decision, in that in 0-1-2e where ability drain isn't very fiddly at all to deal with it was almost never seen, while in 3e - where it's very fiddly - ability drain is all over the place. But, 3e also added Lesser Restoration which previously was a 7th level spell and very expensive.

The problem with stuff like level drain, and incorporeal being too strong and rust monsters and needing buff spells to evade save or die effect... it really just punished the mundanes.

With Rust Monsters, I see your point.

With level drainers, it all depends who the DM decides to target - particularly with incorporeal ones who can, if they want, move right through the front line to get at the tasty morsels in the back should they so desire.

It's AGAIN more stuff that makes Magic the be-all end-all of DnD Problem Solving. Most of the 'challenges' end up being simply a way to say 'you must be THIS magical to win'. You either ABSOLUTELY need a full caster or deck out characters in golf-bags worth of magical loot.

For those types of encounters, yes. Even just a competent Cleric who can turn is a big help.

But, a party that has no casters isn't likely to seek out situations where casters would be essential, hm? Or, if they find they really do need one, they'll go and recruit one.

It honestly irks me. The game is already 80% casters...

5e is. 0-1-2e have a slightly lower caster ratio. (counting Rangers and Paladins as non-casters as such casting as they do get doesn't arrive until pretty late on)

More important is that the non-casters be able to get their mitts on a magic weapon or two during the early part of their careers; and I have no problem with that.

 

[Weiley31]

One might say that if fixing it costs money then it's had a useful effect (depending how rich your parties are).

Ability drain in 3e and forward is fiddly in that there's so many skills etc. tied to abilities. A strange design decision, in that in 0-1-2e where ability drain isn't very fiddly at all to deal with it was almost never seen, while in 3e - where it's very fiddly - ability drain is all over the place. But, 3e also added Lesser Restoration which previously was a 7th level spell and very expensive.

With Rust Monsters, I see your point.

With level drainers, it all depends who the DM decides to target - particularly with incorporeal ones who can, if they want, move right through the front line to get at the tasty morsels in the back should they so desire.

For those types of encounters, yes. Even just a competent Cleric who can turn is a big help.

But, a party that has no casters isn't likely to seek out situations where casters would be essential, hm? Or, if they find they really do need one, they'll go and recruit one.

5e is. 0-1-2e have a slightly lower caster ratio. (counting Rangers and Paladins as non-casters as such casting as they do get doesn't arrive until pretty late on)

More important is that the non-casters be able to get their mitts on a magic weapon or two during the early part of their careers; and I have no problem with that.

I think I'm this edition, Exhaustion is probably as close to Level Draining as your going to get.

I see it as a good fill in for it.

 

[Lanefan]

I think I'm this edition, Exhaustion is probably as close to Level Draining as your going to get.

I see it as a good fill in for it.

Much like a bicycle is a good fill-in for a Harley-Davidson?

Level drain, absent an expensive Restoration spell, is permanent in 0-1-2e until you earn it back the hard way through more adventuring. Exhaustion goes away on its own in, what, a few days maximum?

 

[Garthanos]

The game really isn't as modular, or as easy to house rule as is often claimed, and the modular elements we have been given are poorly conceived and clearly afterthoughts.

Not completely surprised we agree but not a lot seem to agree about that.

 

[Weiley31]

Much like a bicycle is a good fill-in for a Harley-Davidson?

DAMN RIGHT IT IS!

 

[Garthanos]

Level drain, absent an expensive Restoration spell, is permanent in 0-1-2e until you earn it back the hard way through more adventuring.

Wait you mean the editions where adventuring did not in any way mean you improved stats? The editions where removing 2 points of a stat meant next to nothing for most characters when stats barely had and impact on your ability? Oh shucky darn my strength went from a 12 to a 10 ... or 14 to 8 geeze I think i will go spend 5 minutes and roll up a new character.

Stats (almost always) mean way more now pretending they are the same and people should see maiming characters in that way as the same then as now seems like a deception to me.

 

[Garthanos]

But, a party that has no casters isn't likely to seek out situations where casters would be essential, hm?

How many people know what to expect massively in advance and how crappy the party is going to be at dealing with these partially defined situations without casters? Might as well admit the "you must be this magical" to get on the ride is a truth.

 

[Lanefan]

Wait you mean the editions where adventuring did not in any way mean you improved stats?

Stat improvement was rare, but it did occasionally happen; and once UA came out with the percentile-increment idea for Cavaliers it was five minutes work to port that on to every class.

The editions where removing 2 points of a stat meant next to nothing for most characters when stats barely had and impact on your ability?

Sure, if you went from a middlin' number to another middlin' number. But getting something hammered down to 5 has impact in every edition...never mind down to 2, or to 0...

Oh shucky darn my strength went from a 12 to a 10 ... or 14 to 8 geeze I think i will go spend 5 minutes and roll up a new character.

Amazing how you can take one of the absolute best features of old-school D&D - that being fast char-gen - and paint it as a bug.

Stats (almost always) mean way more now pretending they are the same and people should see maiming characters in that way as the same then as now seems like a deception to me.

I think you might have missed my original point: despite the lack of "fiddly" involved, 0-1-2e didn't have many permanent stat-draining effects at all. Sure, Shadows and Ropers clobbered your Strength but it came back on its own at (I think) a point per hour; and Feeblemind whacked your Intelligence (though Feeblemind's really just a tarted-up version of save-or-die), but not much else did.

Usually, permanent stat drains were just as rare as permanent stat boosts, and often from the same sources.

 

[Undrave]

How many people know what to expect massively in advance and how crappy the party is going to be at dealing with these partially defined situations without casters? Might as well admit the "you must be this magical" to get on the ride is a truth.

Yuuuup. Maybe you can scry to know in advance? OH WAIIIIIT a second...That's magical too!

With Rust Monsters, I see your point.

With level drainers, it all depends who the DM decides to target - particularly with incorporeal ones who can, if they want, move right through the front line to get at the tasty morsels in the back should they so desire.

Notice how you consider the casters 'TASTY' morsels? My point is that if you have the key in your pocket (Greater Restoration) then the drain isn't actually more than a temporary hurdle you can just fix by trading in your key. At best you'll have to wait an extra day to get the spell.

On another note, I think a good way to model ability drain without the fiddlyness would be a blanket "You get -1/2/3/whatever to all d20 rolls". There, done and done. It's less granualar than 'oh no! My charisma's been drain!" but it ends up more generally impactful. Personally I'd also model the recover on the 4e disease track and allow a gradual lowering of the penalty (or it gets worse if you get hit multiple time) and give the Medecine Skill some use.

 

[Lanefan]

How many people know what to expect massively in advance and how crappy the party is going to be at dealing with these partially defined situations without casters?

Do these parties never do any research or ask any questions about whatever adventure they're contemplating? About what they might be up against? About the history of the place, and who-what might have lived there? About what might be useful and-or required in order to have a better chance of a) surviving and b) success?

If no, they deserve whatever they get.