D&D 5E Is 5e the Least-Challenging Edition of D&D?

[Oofta]

LOL as you well know, it just depends on what solo BBEG the DM throws at the characters.

The only solo monsters I thought worked pretty well without environment, etc. were dragons in 2E, but YMMV.

Dragons have always been situational though in my experience. Some people seem to insist on running them stupid so that the PCs have a chance ... and then complain because it was too easy.

On the other hand an ancient red dragon with several levels of sorcerer and enough meta magic to constantly counterspell silently (so no countering their counter games) might be just a little over the top. Not that I speak from experience.

Oh, and a tarrasque against a group of level 1 PCs would certainly be a challenge. How is godzilla supposed to know where to stomp to get those little puny PCs? Quite the conundrum.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Dragons have always been situational though in my experience. Some people seem to insist on running them stupid so that the PCs have a chance ... and then complain because it was too easy.

On the other hand an ancient red dragon with several levels of sorcerer and enough meta magic to constantly counterspell silently (so no countering their counter games) might be just a little over the top. Not that I speak from experience.

Oh, and a tarrasque against a group of level 1 PCs would certainly be a challenge. How is godzilla supposed to know where to stomp to get those little puny PCs? Quite the conundrum.

Yeah, as in the other thread about the dragon/army attacking the city... Dragons, IMO, should always be memorable battles! Frankly, I am a prick of a DM when it comes to playing a BBEG, especially a dragon. Why? Because I treat all monsters like PCs. I want them to survive because that is their goal in the game--not just to be XP for PCs.

 

[Oofta]

Yeah, as in the other thread about the dragon/army attacking the city... Dragons, IMO, should always be memorable battles! Frankly, I am a prick of a DM when it comes to playing a BBEG, especially a dragon. Why? Because I treat all monsters like PCs. I want them to survive because that is their goal in the game--not just to be XP for PCs.

Yeah, a dragon that has been around for at least a thousand years is not going to ever play fair in my campaign. Some monsters are, and should be, nearly impossible to defeat much less kill.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I was having a discussion with a player recently about how he was concerned that the party was going to get destroyed in the adventure I'm running - when the only real challenge happened when they split the party in four directions (no kidding - literally, the six characters went in four different rooms). I told him that among their six characters, four of them had access to magical healing (including Healing Spirits - which is like a 2nd level "maximize the party's HP" after every encounter). Monsters do a paltry amount of damage, death save failures don't carry over, healing is abundant, tactics aren't really essential, etc.

Which brings me to the topic of the thread: Is 5e the easiest edition of D&D? Are you less likely to lose a character?

I feel like in the editions I've played, it's easily the less threatening edition. 4e was pretty hard to die in, but it required some sharp tactical play. 5e, conversely, seems to be the very forgiving, training wheels edition. Especially after 3rd level.

The difficulty of 5e is up to the DM.

 

[ikos]

The difficulty of 5e is up to the DM.

Yeah, but this does not capture the complete picture. Players instinctively expect a certain level of difficulty when siting down to play 5e, based on past experiences, the rule set itself, and their own understanding of encounter design. Even when you clearly telegraph your intent to run 5e against the grain in session zero, rational and sensible players still default to these unconscious expectations. Reminding them becomes tedious and can easily take on a punitive tone. Better to start with a system that matches the kind of game the GM has in mind. There are plenty out there that are far less forgiving than 5E. The buy in is less hazy and confusion as to what sort of game is occurring is lessened considerably. Play 5E to tell stories. Play another game to challenge players.

 

[Oofta]

Yeah, but this does not capture the complete picture. Players instinctively expect a certain level of difficulty when siting down to play 5e, based on past experiences, the rule set itself, and their own understanding of encounter design. Even when you clearly telegraph your intent to run 5e against the grain in session zero, rational and sensible players still default to these unconscious expectations. Reminding them becomes tedious and can easily take on a punitive tone. Better to start with a system that matches the kind of game the GM has in mind. There are plenty out there that are far less forgiving than 5E. The buy in is less hazy and confusion as to what sort of game is occurring is lessened considerably. Play 5E to tell stories. Play another game to challenge players.

That's ... a lot of assumptions. Most of which I disagree with. I challenge my players all the time. I rarely kill off PCs because of their preferences. But running out of spells? Check. One or more people unconscious during a game. Yep. People dragged off to be eaten by bad guys when I wasn't even sure how the PCs would save them? Absolutely.

On the other hand there's a lot less "roll a single die and if you roll poorly you die". If having a PC dying because they made all the right decisions but rolled poorly one time is more "challenging" then I disagree on what the word means. I'd call that more "randomly deadly in ways that is completely outside the control of the player".

 

[Chaosmancer]

I think my major issue with Son of Serpent's premise was the idea that making the game easy to learn meant that you made it less challenging.

Let us take a non-game example for a moment. Are the Drums easy to learn? Yes, hit drum with stick. It literally cannot get easier.

Are the drums challenging to master? Well, considering there is a list of "top drummers of all time" and it includes some highly awarded musicians.... I'm going to have to say yes. Playing the drums isn't "learning music on easy mode" even though at the core level, drums are a simpler instrument to learn.

Same with games, plenty of indie video games are incredibly challenging, while the mechanics are incredibly simple. Press A to jump, get to other side of the screen. And that's it, yet they can still make an experience far more challenging than a 3-D open world sandbox with dozens of options, items, commands and features.

Ease of use does not mean the game is less challenging, it just means it is easy to learn.

 

[fearsomepirate]

I think at high level, the single biggest thing making 5e more challenging than not is the inability for a single caster to stack multiple effects. You can't have a hasted, invisible, flying, enlarged Fighter unless you have four casters dedicated to sustaining the effect. Just about any effect you do sustain has to be saved for every time the caster takes damage, which can be quite often if the DM isn't running a solo monster.

Has any edition of D&D ever done solos well? Lair actions help, and I generally up their power level. One really simple thing is to make number of legendary resistance/actions number of PCs - 1. That and throw in an environment that's advantageous to the bad guy on top of all that.

I think it's another topic though.

Modify your BBEG with two traits that I made up:

Reactive: This creature has three reactions.
Concentrator: This creature can concentrate on up to three spell effects. If it takes damage, each one must be saved for individually.

It makes their action economy resemble that of a party a bit more. You take away the ability of the party to just eat a single OA to burn up the creature's reactions, keep its magic suppressed via two casters with Counterspell, and you likewise can have high-level BBEGs keep Bane sustained when they cast Cloudkill, that sort of thing.

 

[Helldritch]

Has any edition of D&D ever done solos well? Lair actions help, and I generally up their power level. One really simple thing is to make number of legendary resistance/actions number of PCs - 1. That and throw in an environment that's advantageous to the bad guy on top of all that.

I think it's another topic though.

They never did, yet they all did. It was and is easy to get on the single boss, beat it and call it a day. Be it dragon, lich or even a god (in 1E and 2ed...). The real challenge of BBEG is the DM.
How did the players got to the BBEG?
How did it react?
What steps was taken by the BBEG to ensure the players would not get to him?
A lot of questions that are often answered by (in order)
Easily.
Did nothing.
Did nothing.
This reminds me of a DM in the '80s that told me that he could no longer challenge his players. They had killed Odin... I said what????? Impossible. He was so sure of himself that he talked his players of reenacting the battle with me as a DM. I utterly destroyed the group in less than 10 rounds... Players were tempted to say I cheated, but I rolled (and still rolls) everything in the open. They were less than happy. All this to say that difficulty is in the hands of the DM.

Whatever the game system. Be it Palladium, Role Master, Star Wars (WEG or D20), Call of Cthulhu, Paranoia, D&D (whatever the edition), Heroes, Battletech, War Hammer, Vampire the Masquerade and its offshoots or any other system that you can think of. The DM sets the difficulty by either enforcing a strict view of the rules (such as I) or by modifying them to his tastes. Is 5ed really so easy? I don't think so. I haven't had so many TPK in 3ed or 4ed. Both of my group, one with veterans and the other group have about 10 years of experience in RPG, find 5ed quite challenging and don't understand how people find this edition to be a Carebear edition. We were at the game store a few weeks ago and there was a game going on. I was shocked to see the DM allowing so many things that were not in the rules or blatant by passes of rules. And yet, he was complaining that 5ed was too easy (so were his players). These guys were allowed an ASI every four levels and were also having a feat alongside it. So that was double ASI or feat in any games that I know of. It was done in the name of "customization". There was additional feats found on the net that had also been added. But you can see where this led. Games were only one or two encounters per day with easy rest rule. Nova was rampant in this game. I gave them a copy of my .DOCX of: "What you can do in a round of combat." A DOCX that I give to every new players that come my way. I did not have any news so far but the shop owner took my .DOCX and he printed out a few copies to give to people. I think it helped people in that area.

As I said, 5ed lacks a lot of clarification about what and how it is expected to be played. Unless the DM is experienced, you might see strange things going on. I don't know everything and, thankfully, be proven wrong on some rules of 5ed on this forum. (THANKS A LOT GUYS!). Other times I was right (Thank god!). But it is by coming on this forum and by talking with other DM and players alike that we can better grasp the DOs and DON'T of this edition.

 

[billd91]

Get mad at jeremy crawford if you want to. Don't shoot the messenger.

Yeah... no. Jeremy isn't the one saying that the game is designed to be more accessible to stupid people. That's you.