D&D 5E Is a +3 weapon needed...when it boosts damage by 53%?

[Jack the Lad]

Aren't these rules counting on a dearth of spells though?

Unless I'm missing something, (which is very possible, I didn't follow the playtest all the way through and I only read most of the PDF once)
at 14th level a wizard would have 7 less spell slots in 5E than 3.5E PLUS all the bonus spell slots from high INT. Assuming a 20 INT, thats another 6. So they'd be running 13 spells short.

If they really are trying a return to old-school d&d, the lack of spell slots will severely mess with an all-purpose wizard. If they focus on save or dies, they won't have the utility spells at all. If they help out with utility, they'll have even less spell slots to burn.

and that "less powerful" sword? will be able to swing multiple times a round, multiple times a combat, all day every day.

Wizards have at-wills in 5e, which they can cast 'multiple times a combat, all day every day.'

Also, as Stalker0 notes, spell preparation far more flexible in 5e than in 3e, reducing instances in which you prepare a spell and end up never using it, essentially wasting that slot.

5e Wizards also have rituals; outside of combat, they can cast Alarm, Animal Messenger, Augury, Beast Sense, Chariot of Sustarre, Commune, Commune with Nature, Comprehend Languages, Contact Other Plane, Detect Good and Evil, Detect Magic, Detect Poison and Disease, Divination, Drawmiji's Instant Summons, Feign Death, Find Familiar, Find Steed, Forbiddance, Gentle Repose, Identify, Illusory Script, Knock, Leomund's Secret Chest, Leomund's Tiny Hut, Locate Animals or Plants, Locate Creature, Locate Object, Magic Mouth, Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound, Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion, Phantom Steed, Plant Growth, Purify Food and Drink, Rary's Telepathic Bond, Sending, Silence, Speak with Animals, Speak with Plants, Spiritual Weapon, Tenser's Floating Disk and Unseen Servant without expending a spell slot by taking 10 minutes to do so.

A 14th level Wizard in 5e has 17 spells to the 3.5 Wizard's 25, but can 'regenerate' up to 7 spells with Arcane Recovery, which makes it 23 vs 25; taking into account the at-will combat cantrips and ritual casting, I think the 5e Wizard comes out ahead.

Additionally, having ways to attack monsters other than by dealing HP damage is extremely important in 5e, as monster HP scales up far, far faster than Fighter damage.

 

[Kraydak]

WTH? A mook with 100 hit points? That's not a "mook," that's a "respectable opponent"--say, an 11th-level fighter with Con 16. Of course it takes a couple rounds to put that foe down. If you're fighting large groups of 11th-level fighters, all I can say is, you've got a nasty DM.

If one more hit point would make it immune to power word kill, it ain't a mook.

How about a lowly CR 2 Ogre? 5 swings from a mundanely equipped fighter lvl20 Fighter. You have to use things *even weaker than the Ogre you first encountered at lvl 2* as your mooks.

 

[Obryn]

Aren't these rules counting on a dearth of spells though?

hundreds more should help.

 

[Umbran]

5th edition has made the claim that magic items are not really necessary for the game. So what do you think, would an item that gave the fighter 53% more damage feel "required" in your game?

Very simple answer - it would be required if the bad guys are going to kill the character off if he *wasn't* doing 53% more damage. It is a question of adventure design - does the character need the magic in order to survive the expected challenges, or not?

 

[Pickles JG]

Magic Weapon cast at 6th level makes +3 weapons. It's a buff so a concentration spell but a 53%damage increase is somewhat more offence than haste would give a Fighter at 11th level (33%) & lasts longer though obviously . is 6th level not 3rd & lacks the movement & defensive buffs of Haste.

Just FYI not sure what this implies.

 

[Nebulous]

Very simple answer - it would be required if the bad guys are going to kill the character off if he *wasn't* doing 53% more damage. It is a question of adventure design - does the character need the magic in order to survive the expected challenges, or not?

Right, which puts it wisely into the DM's arena. I don't think any venerable dragon should be approached within a mile without as many magical trinkets as you can possibly scrounge up, and even then the results should be dubious.

 

[Stalker0]

It is a question of adventure design - does the character need the magic in order to survive the expected challenges, or not?

I think this is fair, though I think there is a secondary to it.

Are you doing the damage needed to end fights in an expected timeframe?


This question is one that 4e failed early in its development. When the notion of feat taxes and math adjustment came about, it wasn't that players were losing that much. It was that the fights were taking a very long time to complete.

So if a 20th level fighter without magic is beating his foes in a "reasonable" timeframe, that that makes sense. If the fights become sloggy because of the lack of damage that would be an issue.

 

[Dausuul]

How about a lowly CR 2 Ogre? 5 swings from a mundanely equipped fighter lvl20 Fighter. You have to use things *even weaker than the Ogre you first encountered at lvl 2* as your mooks.

Four swings, not five. "One mook per round" seems like a a reasonable kill rate to me. It's a mook, not a minion.

Furthermore, you're assuming only the Basic fighter--no feats, which means 5 out of 7 of the fighter's attribute boosts have gone to improving her defenses and noncombat abilities. Defensive build is defensive. If the fighter has Great Weapon Master from the last playtest, her kill rate shoots up to "two mooks per round." (GWM is basically a combination of Power Attack and Cleave, both of which are very useful against large numbers of AC 11 monsters.)

 

[Kraydak]

Four swings, not five. "One mook per round" seems like a a reasonable kill rate to me. It's a mook, not a minion.

4.24 for the GWF, 5.09 for the Sword-and-Boarder. To get them down to dropping an Ogre a round you need to boost the GWF's damage by 40% and the S&Ber's damage by 67%. Note that giving them +3 weapons does less than you might think: they already hit on 2s with mundane gear: giving the S&Ber a +3 weapon means he still needs a hair over 4 swings to drop the Ogre. And that assumes than an Ogre (CR2, 450XP) counts as a mook to a level 16 character who needs 30K to advance (in a 4 person party, 267 Ogres…). And that still ignores the fact that mundanely geared high level Fighter vs Fighter is an absurdly long slog. While we don't know the actual stats of a lv 16 Boss monster, well, mirror matches are NOT promising.

Furthermore, you're assuming only the Basic fighter--no feats, which means 5 out of 7 of the fighter's attribute boosts have gone to improving her defenses and noncombat abilities. Defensive build is defensive. If the fighter has Great Weapon Master from the last playtest, her kill rate shoots up to "two mooks per round." (GWM is basically a combination of Power Attack and Cleave, both of which are very useful against large numbers of AC 11 monsters.)

There were worries about balance issues when the feat vs. stat was first floated. Are you really hoping to see a 50-70% offense swing between the two?

 

[Dausuul]

4.24 for the GWF...

The average result of a d6 where you can re-roll 1 or 2 is 4.167. Therefore, the GWF averages 13.333 damage on a regular hit (2d6+5) and 25.333 damage on a crit (2d6+17). Against AC 11, the GWF has an 80% chance of a regular hit and a 15% chance of a crit.

0.80 x 13.333 = 10.667
0.15 x 25.333 = 3.800

10.677 + 3.800 = 14.467, which kills an ogre in an average of 4.08 swings. If you're really concerned about that .08 (which is a shade over one hit point's worth), it's the equivalent of one extra swing every 12.5 rounds, which translates to one use of Action Surge every 50 rounds. Considering the fighter gets two Action Surges per short rest, I should hope she can muster one per 50 rounds of combat.

And that still ignores the fact that mundanely geared high level Fighter vs Fighter is an absurdly long slog. While we don't know the actual stats of a lv 16 Boss monster, well, mirror matches are NOT promising.

The 1v1 mirror match at 20th level is about 6.4 rounds if you figure one short rest per four combats (so you use Action Surge 50% of the time). It would be shorter in a party situation--the benefits of Survivor fall rapidly if the enemy is concentrating fire. Since PCs are not solo monsters, a party situation is normal.

At 15th level, it's 5.5 rounds (again, assuming one short rest per four combats).

There were worries about balance issues when the feat vs. stat was first floated. Are you really hoping to see a 50-70% offense swing between the two?

In one very specific scenario--fighting lots of extremely low-level monsters, low enough to strain (in fact, slightly break) the limits of bounded accuracy.

As I said, the effect on high-level fighters of not having feats is to push them hard toward defense. You sacrifice hitting power in exchange for a) more hit points and b) sturdier saving throws. That's not necessarily a bad trade against the kind of threats you're likely to face at that level. If you're fighting, say, a beholder, you'll be thanking Pelor for those sturdy saves. But it is a trade.