Is a creature still a creature when it's dead?

[Camelot]

If you kill the creature, I would rule that it is no longer a creature, and you can't use it to teleport. Flavorwise, you travel through shadows but only those of creatures because they contain the creature's soul. If the creature's soul departs it, it's shadow becomes useless to you.

However, if you were to knock it unconscious, I would allow it. There is a downside, however. When a creature is killed, I remove its mini from the board and we ignore its dead body. If it is unconscious, its dead body remains on the board prone. You can enter the square of a prone creature (at least I'm pretty sure; in "Stand Up," it says there's the possibility of your square being occupied by another creature while you're prone), but it is difficult terrain. Therefore, you can teleport using it, but you have created an unnecessary square of difficult terrain and I let monsters make death saving throws if they're unconscious, so it could potentially come back in the middle of the fight by spending its one healing surge (or two or three at higher levels).

This is how I would run it, but it can be done many ways.

 

[N0Man]

My DM ruled a dead creature to no longer be a creature, so i couldn't use this spell.

I think you answered your own question. You won't find a clear answer on this in the rule book, however I think that reading between the lines would give the same answer as your DM gave.

Your DM's ruling is a reasonable one, and trumps the opinions of strangers on the internet.

 

[Istar]

Yep my rogue carrys a few dead bodies around to drop on the ground to create flanking, essential part of his equiptment list.

 

[Nytmare]

First reaction ala 3rd edition and rules about standing in another creature's square, is that no, a creature is an object when it hits 0 hps.

BUT

My second thought was also "unconscious creatures?" followed closely by not really being able to see any kind of egregious and abusive power-gaming with a three square teleport between living or dead creatures on the board.

If the power used the word "enemy" or "ally" I'd say it was an entirely different thing. But "creature" I think only gets abusive if the player attempts to bag-o-rats it.

 

[Nightson]

As a DM I would allow it on the turn you killed the enemy and not after it's sunk to lifeless corpse status on the next turn. Just because killing something and then teleporting to your next target in one fell swoop seems neat, and because I generally narrate that things don't die instantly when they drop to 0hp often.

 

[Nytmare]

Yep my rogue carrys a few dead bodies around to drop on the ground to create flanking, essential part of his equiptment list.

I know that you meant it as a joke, but in case there is anyone who might get confused by that, a corpse isn't an ally, and is incapable of attacking, so wouldn't be a legal flanker.

 

[eamon]

My gut instinct is that it's pretty cheesy. On second thought, if you describe it well, I'm sure I wouldn't have a problem with you doing this on a critter you just killed; I mean, that's a pretty cool assassin move I'd imagine - and utterly non-problematic: if there's no creature next to you, you could also just have moved 3 squares (also a move action), so typically this is going to be no better than moving. In a few cases movement isn't possible, or is blocked - but 3 squares isn't all that exciting even then.

Seems to me that pretty much falls under the 'bag of rats' rule. The subject would need to be a a real risk as an enemy, a help as a friend, or otherwise a factor in the combat--I wouldn't let someone say, "I teleport next to a cockroach on that wall".

This is certainly not a typical bag-o-rats as described in DMG; firstly, it's not an attack and doesn't require a hit, and secondly, it works with arbitrary creatures, not necessarily enemies. Having said that, I see where you coming from. The real reason this isn't a convincing argument is that to invoke the bag-o-rats rule, you'd want the action to be somehow overpowered or problematic - which this just isn't; it's more like a waste of an encounter power.

I'd say it depends. If you leave all the dead minis on the board, for the rest of the combat, I'd not allow teleporting next to them. If it is an enemy you just killed, I have no problem with it.

I don't claim my view is RAW, but 0 HP=immediately dead doesn't sit will with me. I picture an enemy who's throat you just slashed collapsing on the ground and bleeding out, grunting and writhing for a round or two. Teleport away, but their connection to their Shadow is too weak for you to leap back.

This brings up another point: Although for speed of gameplay monsters are immediately considered dead when they drop to 0 hit points, behind the scenes, you can use the full dying rules, when it matters - and with those, it's quite unlikely that a dropped creature is really dead. As a DM, for dramatic flair I'd consider it perfectly acceptable to have a mook pour a healing potion down his leaders throat. From a consistency perspective, I prefer the power to work equally adjacent to all dying creatures - allies and just-dropped monsters alike. It also seems non-abusable, so I'd allow it. A DM could even generally allow it but occasionally rule otherwise without being unreasonable - if you crit+kill someone, or solidly bash a minion, perhaps the shadow's simply gone too far; the critter's no longer dying but dead.

In any case, I wouldn't see a problem with interpreting this power while considering recently dropped creatures as alive (but dying). Teleporting away from a bug seems more problematic...

 

[Istar]

I know that you meant it as a joke, but in case there is anyone who might get confused by that, a corpse isn't an ally, and is incapable of attacking, so wouldn't be a legal flanker.

What, are you kidding me ?

I prep the room with a few corpses propped up in certain area's then entice the enemies in

 

[Nytmare]

No, no no! He's lying, he's lying, he's lying!

 

[unan oranis]

This is a reverse bag of rats problem.

Since you can just as easily K.O. an enemy, you gain zero extra advantage than intended by this power.

K.O. the next few guys and your dm will hopefully see that there is no point in restricting you in this fashion.

Flavor-wise, an assassin using shadow magic to move between the steaming corpses of his enemies works for me.