is a MDS needed with VP/WP?

[Aleshandre]

There was a bulletpoints that explains the conversion of weapons to Modern from SW and back. There is also an Unearthed Arcana exerpt that fully explains hp to vp/wp conversion including threat ranges and multipliers.

 

[Khorod]

I don't really see the Modern to SW conversion in that article- firearms are certainly implied, but not a general formula.

I've been experimenting with this myself. My current thinking is that the x3 crit-weapons do +2 Wound Damage on Criticals and the x4 crit-weapons do +4 Wound Damage. Though I am debating if this should be +1/+3.

This remains a significant advantage, this elevates such weapons that extra step that makes them particularly devastating when a direct hit is made.

 

[GlassJaw]

Using AP's to confirm a critical hit isn't in the definition of AP's from d20 Modern.

Correct. It's in Grim Tales (which I will be using). AP's in GT work quite different than they do in d20 Modern.

There is also an Unearthed Arcana exerpt that fully explains hp to vp/wp conversion
including threat ranges and multipliers.

Yes, I got some ideas from UA (which I have). As you can see from the article, the threat range is adjusted by one for every step above a x2 crit multiplier. So a greataxe does 1d12 damage and crits on a 19-20.

Another method (although I forgot where it was from), was to keep the original threat range but drop all the multipliers down by 1. So a greataxe crits on a 20 and has a multiplier of x2.

I'll be using the former myself. Any crit multiplier is too deadly for the VP/WP system IMO.

I don't really see the Modern to SW conversion in that article- firearms are certainly implied, but not a general formula.

Well IIRC, the SW system is slightly different still. Every weapon in SW has a threat range of 20. I like the UA method if you want to use other weapons. It's the easiest to implement.

My current thinking is that the x3 crit-weapons do +2 Wound Damage on Criticals and the x4 crit-weapons do +4 Wound Damage.

I don't think it's needed with normal weapons but something similar is needed for sneak attack. If you crit while making a sneak attack, all those bonus dice are just too much. If you want sneak attack to be very deadly in your game, them leave it as-is. Otherwise, grant a +1 bonus to WP damage per sneak attack die.

It gets really nutty though if you make a normal sneak attack but in doing so, your opponent's VP total is reduced to 0 but there is still damage leftover. What happens then? Does the rest of the damage go to your opponent's WP, even though you could have a ton of sneak attack damage leftover?

This isn't a huge concern in SW because so few things grant sneak attack damage (I think one or two PrC's do and that's it).

 

[Vigilance]

On a similar topic, does anyone think the VP/WP system places too much emphasis on crits? I like the VP/WP system on paper but haven't seen it much in practice. I'm just wondering if all the players will grab the biggest crit weapon they can find, get Imp Crit as soon as they can, and save all their AP's to confirm crits.

That's my feeling, which is why I prefer a lowered MDT to VP/WP.

It all depends on what you want, but the main difference between the two systems, as I see it, is that MDT tends to be a little more heroic and a little more flexible, and tends to play more like a d20 game.

Here's why I make those 3 statements.

1. Its more heroic in that a character's ability to survive massive damage improves as he gains levels, since his saves improve. As opposed to Wound Points which are largely static.

2. MDT is more flexible than WP because its incredibly easy to "dial in" your level of grittiness. 50 points of damage (the D&D level) for the barest amount of realism (just enough to make a high level fighter think twice about a jump off a 10th floor balcony, but not much more).

15 for a little more realism, mildly dangerous at low levels, easy to make at high levels (d20 Modern), and 10 for something that's really tough for any character below 10th level (CoC).

3. MDT plays more like d20 than WP because higher level characters have to be worn down over successive encounters, like a traditional d20 game. If you are using WP, characters tend to laugh off VP damage unless they are having encounters in rapid succession. They can take a short breather and recover.

On the other hand, using WP means you always have to fear that one big shot, which, as I stated above, makes you just as fearful of a crit at 10th level as you were at 1st.

Some people might like that, but I like my high-level characters to feel, well, high level.

Chuck

 

[HellHound]

Very well stated, Chuck.
I feel that the MDT=10 rule is one of the best rules I've seen for d20 gaming that allows the game to change in texture withotu actually changing any major rules.

 

[GlassJaw]

MDT tends to be a little more heroic and a little more flexible, and tends to play more like a d20 game.

Here's why I make those 3 statements.

And all those reasons are why I like the VP/WP system better!!

My main problem with the MDS is that it's either all or nothing. You either make your save and continue like nothing happened or you're down for the count in one fell swoop. There's no middle ground. The VP/WP system can emulate taking a bullet or getting cut with a blade better than a traditional hp system, with or without a MDS.

On the other hand, using WP means you always have to fear that one big shot, which, as I stated above, makes you just as fearful of a crit at 10th level as you were at 1st.

Some people might like that, but I like my high-level characters to feel, well, high level.

Again, it's all about the feel you are going for. This is exactly why for this campaign I have in mind, I want to use the VP/WP system. I want the mechanics to stress tactics and stealth and less emphasis on direct melee combat or the need for armor. I'd rather have a system where gaining surprise on your opponent is more important than how much damage you can absorb.

 

[mmadsen]

My main problem with the MDS is that it's either all or nothing. You either make your save and continue like nothing happened or you're down for the count in one fell swoop. There's no middle ground.

Perhaps you'd like the Damage Save system from Mutants & Masterminds or Blue Rose then.

Also, even a binary up-down system can have some middle ground if you use action points to keep fighting.

 

[Rodrigo Istalindir]

The question is what to do about weapons with higher multipliers. There are essentially two choices: 1. keep the crit at 20 and increase their multiplier (so a x3 weapon would become a x2 weapon) or 2. increase the threat range by 1 (so a x3 weapon would crit on a 19-20).

I'm not familiar with Dragonquest but what I was thinking of doing is to completely remove autohits. A 20 is not an automatic hit. If you roll a 20 and it would hit normally, you can spend an AP to confirm it. I'm also thinking about using opposed rolls. So you might roll a 20 but if your enemy has a high defense, there is a chance his result will be better than yours. More rolling also means more things to spend AP's on.

Leave the crits at 20/x1 with an AP to confirm. It will prevent picking weapons strictly for their crit bonuses, it will keep improved crit equally usefull no matter what weapon you use, and won't be so frequent as to make every fight come down to who crits first. Reducing the power curve between a dagger and a greataxe is a good thing in a GnG game. And a d12 + modifiers straight to the gut is still nothing to laugh at.

Dragonquest was roll 10% and under of what you needed to hit (eg a to hit chance of 80 and you roll an 8 on a d100) and damage goes straight to Endurance (VPs) bypassing the armor (which was DR). Roll less than 5%, and in addition to the above, you got to roll on the very nasty critical wounds table. Lose an eye, sever the spine, lots of fun. Frequent enough to make you scared, infrequent enough that fights would sometimes end inconclusively as the combatants decided to disengage when they were starting to get down to just their Endurance points left. Although, for the most part, you only had 15-20 Endurance, and 20-25 Fatigue (the WP equivalent). Even experienced characters were at risk from the volley of arrows.

 

[Land Outcast]

Hey, I found thist thread and remembered to ask for something I've been looking for,
know where I could get information about the VP/WP system in the web?

 

[Old One]

My main problem with the MDS is that it's either all or nothing. You either make your save and continue like nothing happened or you're down for the count in one fell swoop. There's no middle ground. The VP/WP system can emulate taking a bullet or getting cut with a blade better than a traditional hp system, with or without a MDS.

One of the MDS systems out there (BCCS maybe?) has a graded MDS. Fail by 5 or less and it drops you to 0 hit points, disabling you. Fail by 6 or more and you are down and dying. If you use this in conjunction with some of the feat/talent trees that allow a PC to stay more active while disabled ("Die Hard", etc)...it might be a good middle ground.

~ OO