Is all mithral armour masterwork?

[millipj]

The DMG says the "items fashioned from mithral are treated as masterwork with regard to creation times but the masterwork quality does not affect [.....] the armor check penalty of armor"

If I find a mithral shirt can it always be enchanted? same goes for elven chainmail and dwarven plate armour?


And while I'm on the subject, what is the point of elven chainmail?

Mithral chain shirt, 1100 gp, AC +4, max dex +6, ASF10%
Mithral chain shirt +1, 2100 gp, AC +5, max dex +6, ASF10%
Elven chainmail, 4150 gp, AC +5, max dex +4, ASF 20%

 

[Mike Sullivan]

Mithral Chain Shirt +4: 17,100pg, +8 Armor bonus, +6 Max Dex, 10% ASF, no ACP

Elven Chain +3: 13,150gp, +8 Armor bonus, +4 Max Dex, 20% ASF, -2 ACP

 

[Sejs]

No, Mithral is not inherantly masterwork - you just PAY for it like it was. If you want to make it Masterwork Mithral you would pay the MW costs a second time.

To enchant armor, it must be masterwork. As in actually masterwork. Not just mithral.

As for elven chain? No real point. The inclusion of Chain Shirts killed the point of elven chain real quick.

 

[Pax]

No, Mithral is not inherantly masterwork - you just PAY for it like it was. If you want to make it Masterwork Mithral you would pay the MW costs a second time.

To enchant armor, it must be masterwork. As in actually masterwork. Not just mithral.

As for elven chain? No real point. The inclusion of Chain Shirts killed the point of elven chain real quick.

Then again, Magic of Faerun, in it's Special Materials section (page 177) states explicitly that items crafted of the materials listed there ARE, in fact, masterwork items ... including for the purposes of making them magical. And, unsurprisingly, Adamantine and Mithril are both listed there (essentially reiterating the DMG text for each).

So ... by those rules a +1 Mithril Shirt would cost 2,100gp (chain shirt + mithril + magic), not 2,250gp (chain shirt + mithril + masterwork + magic).

Which, to be blunt, is only bloody well FAIR; the masterwork bonus doesn't stack with the mithril bonus, so, WTH should you have to pay for both and only get one ... ? In fact, MoF specifies that all the material bonusses described are instead of the normal masterwork bonus ... not in addition to.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Which, to be blunt, is only bloody well FAIR; the masterwork bonus doesn't stack with the mithril bonus, so, WTH should you have to pay for both and only get one ... ? In fact, MoF specifies that all the material bonusses described are instead of the normal masterwork bonus ... not in addition to.

Fair? Since when does fair have anything to do with mithral? It is an intriguing idea, but it is implemented as a ugly hack tacked onto the magic item creation rules. It makes no sense at all regarding game balance -- mithral is a greater benefit to light and medium armors but it is more expensive when used for heavy armors.

 

[Wolf72]

hah! I love/hate this discussion!

anyway, this is one of those things that'll hopefully be reworded and clarified.

I ruled that they are MW and you have to pay the extra price as well. ... not that I've had a chance to use it though

*wolf whistles hopefully that someday soon he'll have time, money, and people to play with*

 

[Pax]

Fair? Since when does fair have anything to do with mithral? It is an intriguing idea, but it is implemented as a ugly hack tacked onto the magic item creation rules. It makes no sense at all regarding game balance -- mithral is a greater benefit to light and medium armors but it is more expensive when used for heavy armors.

Excuse me? What ARE you smoking?

A Barbarian can wear Mithril Full Plate (or, if you have A&Eq, Mithril Dendritic Armor), and keep their fast movement -- because Mithril Heavy Armor counts as medium armor.

And I daresay, taking a +0 maximum dexterity armor (Half Plate or Dendritic), and turning it intoa +3 maximum dexterity armor, is a darned sight more of an improvement than going from +6 (chain shirt) to +9, or whatever.

Frankly, I think it's the LIGHT end of the spectrum that gains the least!

...

As to what is or isn't fair ...

[minirant]
IMC, I even ruled that not all magic arms and armor are masterwork ... and that the masterwork or materials bonus STACKS with magic. I mean, shouldn't an Adamantine Longsword +2 be better than a normal Longsword +2 made of ordinary steel?

The Adamantine sword costs more, but by the rules .... both have the same thing: a +2 enhancement bonus.

Sure, sure, the adamantine sword is harder to sunder (how often, REALLY, do you sunder a characters BEST piee of equipment? If you answer more often than "very rarely", remind me NEVER to play with you ...).

And yes, I know, the adamantine sword keeps functioning in an antimagic field. How often do you run into THOSE, while your players are wielding +2 weapons as their primary equipment ... ? (see above WRT your answer).

Still, in 99.99999% of cases, neither sword functions any better than the other whatsoever ... for all that the adamantine one costs more than twice as much as it's ordinary-steel counterpart!

My philosophy is simple: if you PAY for a benefit, you should bloody well GET that benefit. Hence, my comment about fairness.
[/minirant]

 

[Steverooo]

Bonii

AC will now benefit from both Armor and Shield Bonuses, to both of which may be added Enhancement Bonuses... I would break "Enhancement Bonuses" down into (Magical) Enhancement Bonuses, and Material Bonuses... and no, I would NOT let them stack! A +2 Mithril sowrd IS superior to a +2 "normal" one, due to its material bonuses. An Adamantine one even more so, due to having TWO chances to bypass DR (magical and adamantine). In either case, the sword gets higher "armor" vs sundering, more HP, and higher saves... This is sufficient bonus, WITHOUT adding any Materials Bonus!

 

[Pax]

Re: Bonii

AC will now benefit from both Armor and Shield Bonuses, to both of which may be added Enhancement Bonuses... I would break "Enhancement Bonuses" down into (Magical) Enhancement Bonuses, and Material Bonuses... and no, I would NOT let them stack! A +2 Mithril sowrd IS superior to a +2 "normal" one, due to its material bonuses.

Well, as mithril only costs "per pound" for nonarmor items, and the sole benefit you'd get form Mithril in a weapon is beign lighter and more durable, stacking material and magic benefits isn't an issue in such a case.

An Adamantine one even more so, due to having TWO chances to bypass DR (magical and adamantine).

Only in 3.5; in 3.0, that is not the case. In 3.0, a +2 sword, a nonmagicak adamantine sword, a +1 adamantine sword, anda +2 adamantine sword, all penetrate DR exactly the same: as a +2 sword.

In either case, the sword gets higher "armor" vs sundering, more HP, and higher saves... This is sufficient bonus, WITHOUT adding any Materials Bonus!

Except that a large part fo what you are paying for, in the case of adamantine, is that +2 enhancement to hit and damage. Why shouldn't that stack with magic? You're PAYING for both, you shoudl GET both.

I'm sorry, but 9,000gp added on to a longsword, is a WEE bit much for just increased Sunder resistance -- double hardness and +1/3 hitpoints. As for saves -- adamantine or iron, there's no difference. Heck, adamantine or PAPER, saving throws are the same: an unattended nonmagical item always fails. A magic item regardless of material gets saves of 2 + (one-half caster level). Material is irelevant for saves.

But seriously, let's look at this. Two +2 longswords, one made of iron, the other of adamantine.

The iron sword costs 8,315gp; it has +2 to hit, +2 damage, a hardness of 12, and 7hp.

The adamantine sword costs 17,315gp. It has +2 to hit, +2 damage, a hardness of 22, and 8hp (the default is to always round fractions DOWN, and 1/3 of 5 is less than two).

So, we've paid about 9,000gp, for what? 10 hardness and ONE measley hit point? No; I'm sorry, I just don't buy it. Especially since you'd pay 6,000gp less for essentially the SAME benefit on a dagger +2 !! Okay, teh dagger wouldn't get a bonus hp, but it would get the only OTHER benefit that doesn't (by 3.0 core rules) stack with it's magic -- the entiretyof the +10 hardness.

It just doesn't make sense. If you pay for something, then you GET that something. Common sense, logic, and fair game balance. X ability is worth Y gold, fine .... but that means Y gold buys X ability every time you are allowed to pay the Y gold!

 

[AuraSeer]

Re: Re: Bonii

Except that a large part fo what you are paying for, in the case of adamantine, is that +2 enhancement to hit and damage. Why shouldn't that stack with magic?

First off, it's magic, so it works however it feels like. Common sense does not usually apply.

Second, special materials have a constant price, which breaks the scaling equation for high bonuses. An adamantine longsword enchanted to +3 costs 27,000 gp. If the bonuses did stack, there would be no reason to buy a +5 longsword at 50,000 gp. Lower-level characters could afford much more powerful weapons, which would break class/level balance and the CR system.

I'm sorry, but 9,000gp added on to a longsword, is a WEE bit much for just increased Sunder resistance

That's really not the primary bonus, unless your DM is Sunder-happy (or in love with rust monsters). The main advantage of adamantine is that it maintains its +2 enhancement bonus at all