D&D 3E/3.5 Is Briar Web a 2nd level spell in 3.5e?

[DrSpunj]

I still say: cap the damage at 1d4, and apply it only to movement. Otherwise, the spell is better than Spike Stones, and that's not a good thing.

(The average damage of 1d4+2 equals the average damage of 1d8. So, at 3rd level -- the earliest level at which it can be cast -- this spell outclasses a 4th level spell. NOT GOOD.)

Well, at 3rd level Briar Web does 1d4+3 which is actually higher than the average damage of 1d8 by a full point, but you can move multiple squares within a Briar Web each time you take damage. Spike Stones deals its damage each square. With the flexibility Spike Stones gives with those 20' squares you could force someone to walk through far more than 3-4 squares to get out of the spell's area. Max it takes only 3-4 turns of damage to walk out from the center of a Briar Web. Now, that's enough to kill your average goblin, but only if he starts out at least 40' away from you (otherwise you affect yourself with the spell) while Spike Stones can be thrown down in a very precise manner to affect the most foes and avoid the most allies.

Overall, centering both spell's effects on your chosen foe(s), Spike Stones certainly isn't "outclassed" at all.

Now, without the damage cap, I could see bumping Briar Web to 3rd level. I just looked over Spike Growth (hadn't spotted it before now) and they seem to be more on par with each other.

With a damage cap I still think it stays at 2nd level, as Spike Growth scales better with level for Area & Duration, can be cast in more environments, and has the same movement effects as Spike Stones. To me, Briar Web is a merge of Entangle and Spike Growth, and with a reasonable damage cap slides very nicely between the two at 2nd level.

DrSpunj

 

[Nail]

Excellent posts! Thanks.

I was out-of-computer-range this weekend, gaming with another friend. I took a 6th level elven ranger, who memorized Entangle twice.

To put it bluntly, I rocked. As an archer, I entangled them, then picked them off one by one as they slogged towards me. Even the Hill Giant (CR 7) had no chance, once the surprise round was over. Fear my 3 caster level prowess!

Entangle ain't no 1st level spell, even given its environmental restrictions. Thus any spell based on it is not balanced. Briar web is based on Entangle, so.....

The problems I see with Briar Web are area of effect and no save for the damage taken. It's true that for the situation which I describe, not even a Ref save would have saved those (poor, sterotyped, mis-judged, defenceless!) goblins. They were dead meat once the area of effect was centered on them.

I've seen above the argument: "But they take no damage if they do nothing". Hey, that's great, but not only does that instantly take multiple combatants out of a fight, but it also effectively dooms them to a quick death once their un-Briar Webed compatriots are killed or driven off.

In otherwords, it's a 2nd level save or die spell for multiple (2 to 20!) low level combatants. Not good.

Not 2nd level as written (IMHO!).

 

[Nifft]

Overall, centering both spell's effects on your chosen foe(s), Spike Stones certainly isn't "outclassed" at all.

Spike Stones doesn't hurt you if you stand still and fire missile weapons, cast spells, or try to fly out of it. Briar Web hurts you in all cases. Sure, if your enemy has no mode of locomotion besides walking on the (stone) ground, Spike Stones deals more damage. But Briar Web limits its targets actions far more harshly.

-- N

 

[Rel]

Spike Stones doesn't hurt you if you stand still and fire missile weapons, cast spells, or try to fly out of it. Briar Web hurts you in all cases. Sure, if your enemy has no mode of locomotion besides walking on the (stone) ground, Spike Stones deals more damage. But Briar Web limits its targets actions far more harshly.

-- N

Spike Stones also doesn't provide cover. It's the cover that it provides that makes waiting out the duration a viable option because the enemies outside cannot effectively target you for ranged attacks while you are in its grasp.

You'll get no argument from me that the spell is powerful for its level though. If it were 3rd level, it would still be a fairly nice spell to have in the arsenal.

 

[Nail]

......Effect-wise I can't see how ((Spike Stones and Briar Web)) come out anywhere near equal.

I'll list the benefits of each again:

Briar Web
-Entangled, once/rd Ref save while in area of effect.
-Strength or Esc. Artist check DC 20 to break free and half move.
-Damage 1d4+1/lvl, no cap, for any action at all.
-Provides cover, total cover after 20 ft.

Spike Stones
-Not Entangled
-May take any action other than move for no damage
-Does not provide cover (Casters love large areas of cover between themselves and archers!)
-Half move
-Does temporary "movement damage", so 1/4 move
-Damage 1d8 hp per 5 feet move.

Seems to me that the effects are awfully comparable. Not one-for-one, true, but still.....

BTW, I'm another player in this group. I think Entangle would've done just as a good a job last night since any that failed their Reflex saves and got Entangled would've essentially been out of the fight....

Agreed. Although this spell should be changed (IMHO), there's no need to change the results of that fight. The spell made it easier....but probably not by very much. You pasted 'em, but good.

From now on, all goblins will take a manditory druid level, so they can all cast Entangle

 

[Nail]

Double post.......

"Oh, for the love of Pete........"

 

[Nail]

....dang nab-it!

My internet connection has been giving me 2-3 minute waits after I hit the "post" button.

Sorry: triple post.

 

[DrSpunj]

Felt so strongly about that ye had ta repeat it thrice, did ya?



I think we agree on principle, but I'd much rather be affected by a Briar Web (as a 2nd or 3rd level spell) than Spike Stones. Against 1 HD opponents the difference is moot, but against PCs of 7th level most would fair FAR better against a Briar Web than a Spike Stones.

Even your 6th level Elven Archer would come out way better using it (assuming he had access to a 7th level Druid with the spell)! Not only do you not have to deal with the cover that Briar Web provides but you can lay those 20' squares of area (all 7! of them) around your biggest threats. At 1d8 per 5' of movement, if they can't Fly, Dimension Door, or Teleport out of the spell's area, you get to shoot to your absolute heart's content while they dance on the sharp rocks!

Anyway, Nail, does that mean you're House Ruling both Entangle and Briar Web? And if so, how?

DrSpunj

 

[Nail]

Felt so strongly about that ye had ta repeat it thrice, did ya?

Aww shucks. Fixed.

Anyway, Nail, does that mean you're House Ruling both Entangle and Briar Web? And if so, how?

I'd rather see a bit more discussion on it, actually.

My proposal for a fix:

Entangle: Change to 20' radius spread.

Briar Web: Change to 20' radius, 1d4 damage (no save) for movement, not for "any action".

FWIW.

Comments:

• The change to entangle brings it more in-line with a "1st level Web spell.
  
• Change to spread of Briar Web follows that.
  
• Damage should not be scalable with level.
  
• People within should be able to do Move equivalent actions without damage.

But: Hey, that's a first draft. Where's Rowan?

 

[Gina]

Obvously, I would prefer to have my spells be more effective, however, I can go with whatever is decided.

Actually, I generally don't take entangle since the one time I used it the foe we were fighting escaped it easily and it did not help our party at all and in fact, only caused more problems, so I have little confidence in the effectiveness of that particular spell.

Overall, as I said before, I can live with whatever is decided and cannot really comment as I have a biased viewpoint based on the fact that I am the player in this case.

Rowan.