D&D 3E/3.5 Is Briar Web a 2nd level spell in 3.5e?

[Rel]

There's no question that the area of effect for Entangle and Briar Web is enormous. We made some mylar templates to use for drawing these effects out and the 16 inch diameter circle is just huge.

As an idle musing, I wonder if that large AoE is a bit of a throwback to the days when distances outdoors were treated differently from in the dungeon?

 

[DrSpunj]

Entangle: Change to 20' radius spread.

Briar Web: Change to 20' radius, 1d4 damage (no save) for movement, not for "any action".

FWIW.

Comments:

• The change to entangle brings it more in-line with a "1st level Web spell.
• Change to spread of Briar Web follows that.
• Damage should not be scalable with level.
• People within should be able to do Move equivalent actions without damage.

But: Hey, that's a first draft.

I think your proposed change to Entangle is very appropriate.

My only issue with your proposed changes to Briar Web are in the...spirit of the spell. I know we're trying to balance it, and that's certainly the highest priority we have, but I don't think the description of the spell's effect jives with your changes. Go read it again (like I just did). Here's the first sentence:

This spell causes grasses, weeds, bushes, and even trees to grow thorns and then wrap, twist, and entwine about creatures in the area, holding them fast.

It's easy for me to see how the original spell works: plants grow long thorns and wrap around pretty much your entire body (hence providing you with cover). Any movement on your part cause some of the thorns to damage you. Only standing completely still avoids getting pierced by a thorn or five. If you don't picture thorns and plant growth covering targets completely, how do you explain/picture the cover described in the spell?

So with that, and keeping in mind we're trying to balance it, I'd propose keeping your 1d4, but switching it back to "any action" and adding a Reflex save for half damage.

This change keeps the first 3 of your 4 bullet points above. The final bullet, to me, is incompatible with the spell description. If you need/want to keep the "Move equivalent actions are safe" part, please change the spell's description and drop the cover it provides. (Or provide me with a mental image to rectify the discrepancy I have between the two.)

Thanks.

DrSpunj

 

[Nail]

There's no question that the area of effect for Entangle and Briar Web is enormous. We made some mylar templates to use for drawing these effects out and the 16 inch diameter circle is just huge.

Our druid did the same, but with paper. Still, it was quite impressive when she whipped that out and said, "...and I cover this many of the goblins with my Briar Web spell......"

Me=> "Yipes!"

As an idle musing, I wonder if that large AoE is a bit of a throwback to the days when distances outdoors were treated differently from in the dungeon?

Huh.

Y'know, it's kinda funny how these bits of the old rules get unearthed once in a while. The spell Magic Missile being the most obvious dinosaur.

I'm pretty sure the other reason this was kept is that most people play in dungeons.

-Nail

 

[Nail]

So with that, and keeping in mind we're trying to balance it, I'd propose keeping your 1d4, but switching it back to "any action" and adding a Reflex save for half damage.

Hmm. I'd be more "tempted" by a Ref save for no damage.

Anyway, I looked over Wall of Thorns, 5th level druid spell. It might be comparable too.

 

[DrSpunj]

Hmm. I'd be more "tempted" by a Ref save for no damage.

Anyway, I looked over Wall of Thorns, 5th level druid spell. It might be comparable too.

After reading it just now it *is* very comparable...to the description I reiterated above. If you're bulling your way through a Wall of Thorns you don't get Dexterity & Dodge bonuses to your AC, and there's no Saving Throw.

Similarly, if you've been totally covered with thorny vines (as Briar Web describes), you really shouldn't escape unscathed (unless you've got DR able to absorb all the damage) if you decide to swing your weapon, jump up & down, or move around. You can do it carefully, while trying to avoid those sharp, pointy spines, and take less damage (with a Reflex half save).

Under the spell's original effects a successful Reflex Save keeps targets from being entangled. With your proposed radius reduction by half to 20' a target affected dead center only has to move 20' to get out of the effect. Since the spell reduces movement by half, and that as a full round action, most targets who succeed at their Reflex save will be out in 2 rounds (and enjoy a cover bonus from the spell during the 1st round).

Allowing a successful Reflex save to also avoid ALL damage means on the first turn those that save will not take any damage and can use their turn to move to the edge of the spell effect (or out of it if they weren't dead center to begin with and/or have a 40' base speed). On their second turn pretty much all targets will be free if they make their Reflex save.

So, let me ask you, if someone makes their Reflex save both times and takes no damage whatsoever, what's better about Briar Web over Entangle? Why would Rowan spend a 2nd level slot again?

At least with Reflex half on the 1d4 damage (incurred for all actions, like the original spell describes), anyone who made their Reflex save would incur 2-4 points of damage. Not a lot to most but still significant to Nail's basic Goblins (and a reason for Rowan to consider taking Briar Web over Entangle).

Thanks.

DrSpunj

 

[green slime]

IMC I simply made it a 3rd level Druid spell, and removed it from the Cleric spell list alltogether (it was listed as Clr 3 in MotW).

 

[Gina]

"Allowing a successful Reflex save to also avoid ALL damage means on the first turn those that save will not take any damage and can use their turn to move to the edge of the spell effect (or out of it if they weren't dead center to begin with and/or have a 40' base speed). On their second turn pretty much all targets will be free if they make their Reflex save.

So, let me ask you, if someone makes their Reflex save both times and takes no damage whatsoever, what's better about Briar Web over Entangle? Why would Rowan spend a 2nd level slot again?"

Exactly what I was thinking!

If creatures can get out easily without taking any damage or even being slowed down for more than one round, it truly becomes a pretty useless spell, certainly not worth a second level slot.

With entangle's radius decrease it also becomes significantly less useful, since again, the majority of creatures won't be in it for more than a round (or two if at dead center).

Again, I admit to not being 100% objective on this, but the changes do ensure that I would never waste a spell slot on either spell.

Rowan[/COLOR]

 

[Darklone]

Excuse me, the only way to take no damage in a Briar Web is to stand still and get entangled. If you do anything, you take damage and have to make a save to avoid being entangled.

 

[Gina]

Excuse me, the only way to take no damage in a Briar Web is to stand still and get entangled. If you do anything, you take damage and have to make a save to avoid being entangled.

I was discussing the changes that Nail suggested to the spell, which included halving the radius and, in a later posting, allowing a save for no damage.

With the changes, it would indeed be possible (and highly probable) that most creatures would be able to get out of the radius with no damage.

It may not have been clear, since the quote thing got screwed up in the post (the baby was hepling me type at the time), but the white type is a quote from the previous posting.

Rowan

 

[Nail]

After reading it just now it *is* very comparable...to the description I reiterated above. If you're bulling your way through a Wall of Thorns you don't get Dexterity & Dodge bonuses to your AC, and there's no Saving Throw.

Right. As I said, it may be a better model that Spike Stones.

Under the spell's original effects a successful Reflex Save keeps targets from being entangled. With your proposed radius reduction by half to 20' a target affected dead center only has to move 20' to get out of the effect....

Right. But you're missing a few parts:

• Many creatures will fail that first Ref save. For most creatures and character classes, Ref is not their good save.
  
• They have to make the save each round they're in the effect, or become entangled. For many creatures, that'll be 2 Ref saves.
  
• If they fail, they become entangled. Then they'll need a successful Strength or Esc. Artist check, DC 20, to move.
  
• Even if they fail that escape check, they'll take damage.

To be honest, I'm imagining what would happen to Riva if a Briar Web was centered on him....... Even while raging he has only a 35% chance of escaping each round.....and as a Ftr/Bbn, his Ref save is....uhmm....low. Working that out roughly, given chance of failure of either the save or the escape attempt.....that comes out to 4 to 8 rounds stuck in the spell! Ouch!

(Oooooooo! That sounds fun! <insert DM evil laugh>)

If it's the flavor text that bothers you....well, we just change the flavor text. Simple enough.

Still, I think we can try it as you propose. I don't mean to take the spell away from our besieged druid; I do intend on making it a 2nd level spell. How about 20 ft radius and 1d4 hp damage, no save, for any action.