D&D General Is character class an in-world concept in your campaigns?

[Son of the Serpent]

That's why I have said multiple times that class would be recognizable by those who know what to look for.

Having to make check to recognize the class or not knowing what to look for doesn't remove class from the game world, though.

Right. But that really only makes it more difficult to fake. Not impossible.

 

[FrogReaver]

Provide some manner of reasoning for this, or expect to be dismissed completely as just blatantly making things up and claiming they’re the truth. This is absolute nonsense on every level.

I mean, there isn’t much setting the Cleric and Bard apart there, at least until pretty high level. And can an onlooker tell the difference between polymorph and wild shape? Between Lay on Hands and Cure Wounds?
You’ll probably say yes, but there isn’t any rule backing you up.

Only if the player or DM decides that is the case. A cleric’s spell could just as easily be a recitation if holy scripture. Not only that, a prayer literally can be a song, and a song can be a prayer. The idea that they can’t be both is so patently absurd that it’s difficult to even imagine what reasoning could bring one to the conclusion.


Lol what? Nope. That is simply something you are making up. Nothing in the rules actually requires that a prayer is recognizable to onlookers as a PRAYER vs a prayer vs an incantation if some other kind.

Your position seems to be that you prefer class to be distinct in the world, and have run all game input through a confirmation bias filter based on that preference. The rules only support you insofar as we discuss very specific flashy abilities, and assume an expert observer, and then further assume that only someone with that PC class can do that thing in the game world, even though RAW an NPC can have any combination of PC abilities that the DM decides fit the needs of the game.

If your willing to actually go watch the videos I can dig you up a few that shows both prayer that isn’t a request and a song directly to god that includes a request.

Prayer is not and never has been just - god give me. Sometimes prayer is about thanksgiving, sometimes about praise and sometimes about venting.

God thank you
God you are great
God I don’t know what to do

Honestly, I think your conception of prayer is cartoonish.

 

[Maxperson]

Right. But that really only makes it more difficult to fake. Not impossible.

I've never said you couldn't fake it. I've been saying that these things make class distinct in the game world.

 

[Son of the Serpent]

I've never said you couldn't fake it. I've been saying that these things make class distinct in the game world.

oh that i agree with. Ok. You can fake something, even to an expert level character in the relevant class albeit with great difficulty. But they are definitely distinct (except for in certain cases where a class literally shares spells and exact method for casting). Cleric spells and wizard spells are 100% different things.

 

[FrogReaver]

I've never said you couldn't fake it. I've been saying that these things make class distinct in the game world.

In a particular setting perhaps but there’s no rules that make it such that a bard can’t cast a spell the same way a cleric does. If so then quote them.

 

[Maxperson]

Prayer is not and never has been just - god give me. Sometimes prayer is about thanksgiving, sometimes about praise and sometimes about venting.

Correct, but "God thank you." and the other types of prayer that aren't a request wouldn't trigger a spell effect. You aren't going to be thanking your god for something that your god hasn't done yet, unless you want to be hit by a divine bolt from the blue for being a presumptive little git. You're going to request that your god does x, and then later if you want to offer up a non-spell prayer thanking your god for that favor, you can. Or you could vent about the target resisting the prayer.

 

[Son of the Serpent]

In a particular setting perhaps but there’s no rules that make it such that a bard can’t cast a spell the same way a cleric does. If so then quote them.

Its not just the way they are cast (there are differences to the necessary parts there to) it is also the actual spell itself. It is literally a different spell. Using different magic. Using different power source. And other differences.

For instance, a bard's spells are arcane in nature. Raw magic to an extent. A cleric recieves power from something less fundemental.

 

[Son of the Serpent]

In a particular setting perhaps but there’s no rules that make it such that a bard can’t cast a spell the same way a cleric does. If so then quote them.

Unless explicitly stated spells that have an arcane version and a divine version are analogues. Not the same. Just very similar.

 

[Maxperson]

In a particular setting perhaps but there’s no rules that make it such that a bard can’t cast a spell the same way a cleric does. If so then quote them.

I already have. The bard rules say that bardic spellcasting involves music. Clerical spellcasting doesn't involve music, though I suppose a cleric could play something while he prays and use a sung prayer. Also, with the exception of those few spells that bards can take from the cleric list through their class ability, their spell results will be very different from clerical spells. For someone who knows what to look for, it will be very hard for a bard to mimic a cleric effectively, and even harder for a cleric to mimic a bard.

 

[Son of the Serpent]

In a particular setting perhaps but there’s no rules that make it such that a bard can’t cast a spell the same way a cleric does. If so then quote them.

Thats not setting specific btw. But holy crap i would have to dig and dig and dig for the entry that makes this clear. Of which there are actually multiple but since its not usually a terribly important piece of info its never somewhere obvious and noticeable.