Is D&D an entry level game?

[ThirdWizard]

3.0 and 3.5 are incredibly easy systems to understand, as far as I am concerned. People keep saying 3.X is so complex, well, it isn't. Picking up a 20th level character is difficult maybe, but at 1st level, you've got a fighter with Weapon Focus, Lightning Reflexes, and Toughness (because you don't know any better) and you swing your sword at an orc until its dead.

It's not that difficult.

By the definitions that I gave in my post, which are the definitions that I am using here, yes. D&D is a gateway game, but not an entry level game.

All you actually did, though, was create your own term and use my definition of entry level game to define it. So, it is indeed a semantics argument. I will define gateway game as a subset of entry level game.

 

[JoeGKushner]

I say yes because its easy to generate a first level character.

Compared generating your first character in D&D, even 3.5 compared to, say Hero and GURPs.

Here's the difference between D&D and the other systems I mentioned: Hero and GURPs are front-loaded. You need to know much more about the game to make a character than you do to PLAY the game.

In D&D, generating a low level character is very easy, as is running him through some simple encounters.

The game BECOMES complex, but the early learning curve is not that steep.

Chuck

Have you checked out the new GURPS and Hero? They're both pretty good about walking you through character creation. Not that I'm saying either of them is an easy game to master. At the same time though, I'd say it's really only easy to make a 1st level fighter. Having a person make a 1st level wizard and explaining that they have to select their spells for the day that they're learned from a list is annoying to say the least.

WoTC must agree and keep the Wizard out of the basic and dummies books, relying instead of the sorcerer. If you know it, you can cast it.

Running a D&D character though some low level encounters also is no guarantee of simplicity. What do you do with a new GM who uses a wolf or other animal that uses something like improved trip or improved grapple? Remember, I'm talking NEW players and NEW GMs, not someone leading another person through the game system. Most games are "easy" when you have someone to show you how it's played.

Now if you count the basic boxed set and D&D dummies books, since those hold your hand while going through it, all well and good. Those traits are not to be found in the core three books though.

 

[jtone]

I live out in the middle of nowhere. I've been interested in RPGs, but haven't had anyone to play them with. I bought the three 3.5 core books and Arcana Evolved, read through them and introduced three of my friends (non-gamers) to roleplaying. I made tons of stupid newbie mistakes, bad calls, and so on, but we had fun. D&D / Arcana Evolved worked fine as an entry level game for us, and it's still going well.

 

[WizarDru]

Running a D&D character though some low level encounters also is no guarantee of simplicity. What do you do with a new GM who uses a wolf or other animal that uses something like improved trip or improved grapple? Remember, I'm talking NEW players and NEW GMs, not someone leading another person through the game system. Most games are "easy" when you have someone to show you how it's played.

The same applies to playing a game like "Shadows over Camelot" or "Memoir '44". I still maintain that it's a question of motivation. If you've bought the three core books and first module (and I maintain the first module is more important than the basic set in this regard), then I think that NEW players will muddle through it. They may not do it correctly the first pass through, or even the second or third...but if they are having fun, they won't care. They'll figure it out as they go.

Consider: how many players here post about rules misconceptions from older editions? I know I ran AD&D, and I ignored rules that seemed cumbersome or didn't provide any fun value. We ignored segments and rounds quite often, for example, in favor of a more intuitive house rule about round order.

Creating any first level character in D&D is fairly easy. The wizard is the most complicated, but creating him is still fairly straight-forward. ESPECIALLY when you consider that every PC class has a sample starting package listed, so that a complete novice could just copy that that starting package and play immediately. Remember, the "the system is complicated" idea runs both ways; if new players may be intimidated by the system, they also may avail themselves of labor-saving options that experienced players like us would balk at. You and I wouldn't use the wizard starting-package...but a new player may. And that's part of my point: there are lots of such features in the current edition that were never there before, making the game easier to enter than ever before.

 

[mhacdebhandia]

I think the success of C&C proves that there is a market for a simpler system

Yet Castles & Crusades' appeal is to old-schoolers nostalgic for a simpler, looser game. It has nothing to do with people who are new to the hobby unless they happen to have such an old-school DM.

 

[Umbra]

Looking over the thread I believe people are interpreting the original question in roughly two ways (yes, semantics is involved):

1) Is 3.5 the game that introduces people to the hobby?
Yes - it is the mainstream brand and is the primary way people become involved.

2) Is 3.5 a good way for novices to enter the hobby with no guidance?
No - it can be done but it is difficult for those without a firm desire to learn. The sheer volume/complexity of the core books makes it a poor entry for the uninitiated. (The fact there is the basic set and D&D for Dummies is evidence of this).

Perhaps a more interesting poll would be whether the basic set is good enough as an entry point?

 

[player 2]

YES, YES, YES!

3.5 is my first experience with any RPG. I have not found it "complex", I find the basic rules fairly easy to understand and I love all the "flavorful tibits" I can add to my character as I become more familiar with the game (feats, prestige classes, cross-classing, etc). My husband taught me how to play and before my first session, he had me roll up a few character to get the feel for all of the stats. The group that I am playing in had 4 players who had played 3.0 or 3.5, 2 players who had not played D&D in at least 10 yrs, and 1 who had never played an RPG before (me!)

My first character was a dwarven fighter because it is so straightforward. I see a creature, I hit it, I kill it, I may get hurt, the cleric heals me and I am ready to go again I still have questions about the rules, but as we come across them, they are answered. I never felt any pressure to understand all the rules before our first session, and it helps that we are all learning as we go. My DM loves to add new rules and information to the game as it comes out. He keeps us on our toes! And as I play more, the more I look forward to playing other types of characters to see how they work. You have succeeded in bring another player into the deep, dark, depths of D&D addiction