Is D&D magic purely Vancian? Let's settle this.

[Psion]

I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one. Most of the books I think of off the top of my head include more flexibility in what magic you can do and the idea of fatigue being the limiter in what you can cast.

Most of the books I can think of (including some on your list) may give a few throw away words about it being taxing, but nothing saying what really is a hard limit. So basically it comes down to authorial convenience.

Since an RPG is required to be more rigorous in this regard, I don't exactly fault it.

 

[Remathilis]

The biggest thing that is "Vancian" about D&D is spell slots. The concept of "knowing" a spell, using it, and not having it again until you "relearn" it is the basic essence of Vance that D&D took all those years ago. Everything else (spell levels, slots/day) are purely game mechanics to keep magic from dominating everything.

I think that is why when there are alternate magic systems, its not spell levels or such that go, its slots/day. Typically, its using some form of mana/spellpoint system.

However, the sorcerer himself shows that WotC is taking baby-steps away from the "fire and forget" paragrim. Proof? Think of every new core class that has come out since the first eleven in the PH (excluding alt systems like psionics or incarnum). How many of the ones that use magic use book/prep casting? How many use divine/prep casting? How many are spontaneous? Case closed.


FYI: 2 are book-casters (archivist and Wu Jen), 3 are divine/preps (OA shaman, Sohei, Healer), and 11 are spontaneous casters (beguiler, dread necro, warmage, mystic, shugenja, spirit shaman, favored soul, spellthief, hexblade, duskblade, artificer)

 

[jdrakeh]

I believe that is represented in the older D&D rules by thieves having the ability to use scrolls (which eventually morphed into the "Use Magic Device" skill).

Possibly, but Cugel didn't read the spell he cast from a scroll (at least not when he cast it). Cugel studied a spell book for months on end, doing his best to memorize the spell so that when he brought his adversary about, he would have the element of surprise. Unfortunately, he mis-remembered a few syllables and ther spell ended up targeting him, rather than his opponent

I don't think any non-spellcaster character besides Cugel used any spells in the books.

True, but I don't think this is because they couldn't. merely because they had no reason or opportunity to do so. I seriously doubt that Cugel was capable of reading and memorizing magic because of his day job as a con man. . .

First, this kind of logical disconnect is rarely, if ever, seen in Vance's fiction (said fiction being typified by an almost scentific approach to fantasy).

Second, numerous other rogues appear in the book, none of whom use magic, but only (I believe) because they don't have the spell books at their disposal (as Cugel did).

As I said earlier, Vance's The Dying Eath was an obvious inspiration for D&D magic, but the system itself is hardly true to magic as it appears in said novel (or the two subsequent Dying Earth novels). It's a homage, at best -- not a recreation.

 

[Mishihari Lord]

I disagree. It has some implications that were hard to plate over in earlier editions that all the sudden become very easy to explain. Why can you not cast a spell from a spellbook, but a scroll? That was a tough nugget to understand in 1e and 2e, but is trivial in 3e.

This isn't a change to the mechanic, just to how easy it is to explain the mechanic. It works exactly the same.

Most of the books I can think of (including some on your list) may give a few throw away words about it being taxing, but nothing saying what really is a hard limit. So basically it comes down to authorial convenience.

Since an RPG is required to be more rigorous in this regard, I don't exactly fault it.

In each of those books I mentioned, characters are specifically stated as being unable to cast further because they're too fatigued. Off the top of my head, this includes Lady from the Black Company books, Rand from the Wheel of Time, and Skeeve in some books by Robert Asprin. In each case the author specifically said that the character was too tired to do any more magic and the character suffered from inability to perform physical activity due to fatigue in addition to being unable to use magic. This is good enough to me to establish that fatigue was the limit.

 

[Psion]

This isn't a change to the mechanic, just to how easy it is to explain the mechanic. It works exactly the same.

I never said it was a change to the way the numbers work in the game. Mechanics is mechanics, but the definition of what it means has changed, making it more self consistent.

As self consistency and suspension of disbelief are big factors in an RPG to me, and I have met many people who could never wrap their heads around "the spell disappearing from your brain", I consider that significant.

In each of those books I mentioned, characters are specifically stated as being unable to cast further because they're too fatigued.

Which is, to turn the tables, not mechanics. That's just flavor text for "out of spell slots".

 

[pawsplay]

In Vance's stories, there are references to wizards pondering how many spells to store in their minds, as trying to exceed your limits could cause your mind to melt. So the first few threads in those post suggesting that Vancian memorization is only memorization is inaccurate. D&D wizards' spells are very Vancian.

The departures are that Vancian wizards do seem capable of some cantrips and spontaneous spells, and powerful ones seem capable of a good deal more, and Incantations are much more commonly used in those stories than in D&D games.

 

[Mishihari Lord]

Which is, to turn the tables, not mechanics. That's just flavor text for "out of spell slots".

It's not just flavor text if they're also too tired to move or collapse, which is not uncommon in the books I've read. That's something that should be reflected in the mechanics, I think.

Anyway, D&D magic isn't a bad system for a game, it just doesn't give me the experience I want.

 

[Psion]

It's not just flavor text if they're also too tired to move or collapse, which is not uncommon in the books I've read. That's something that should be reflected in the mechanics, I think.

You're right. It's not.

But that's by no means the only or exceedingly prevalent mode for mages in many fantasy authors I've read. I've seen plenty of books wherein the mage is "magically exhausted" but aside some throwaway text, is physically intact and goes on with the story by lesser means.

 

[Kristian Serrano]

Vecna, an evil god of secrets and magic created by Gary Gygax, is an anagram for Vance.

 

[Bad Paper]

Vecna, an evil god of secrets and magic created by Gary Gygax, is an anagram for Vance.

That is so heavy.

hey, so I was thinking of trying to read some Jack Vance, but he's got a whole lot of books out there, and I don't know where to start. Other than LotR, I have no patience for the fantasy genre. I peeked inside a Harry Potter book once and nearly puked.

Is there any fantasy that doesn't suck? Vance or otherwise?