Is D&D magic purely Vancian? Let's settle this.

[Anson Caralya]

Is D&D magic purely Vancian or is it a mix with something else? Is it really how it worked in Jack Vance's books (I've never read any).

Aren't there some Tolkien and Robert E Howard magical elements mixed in there?



jh

Gary Gygax was describing the D&D magic system as "Vancian" way back in the early days of Dragon, and in as much as he created it, I'd say his description is accurate. See his article "The Dungeons and Dragons Magic System", republished in "Best of The Dragon" (vol. I). Purely Vancian? Well, no, in that Vance didn't present a magic system for a role-playing game, and had he done so, some certain amount of copyright infringement would have resulted had Mr. Gygax then used it for D&D. Also of note is that Mr. Gygax also refers to magic in Finnish mythology as similar to Vancian magic in that article, and if I'm remembering correctly, "Mordenkainen" was inspired by a Finnish hero...? Shall we debate that next, Emirikol the Chaotic?

 

[Anson Caralya]

Why yes, there is.

Ooh, OK, here are a couple more. "The Broken Sword" by Poul Anderson, pretty dark but still what I think of as great classic fantasy. "Jirel of Joiry" by C. L. Moore, a collection of short stories. "The Worm Ouroboros" by E.R. Eddison, a big, fat epic. Vance's "Lyonesse" trilogy is great too, although over the years I think I've come to appreciate his sardonic stories ("Cudgel's Saga", "Showboat World", "Space Opera") above the others.

 

[mmadsen]

Gandalf's spellcasting ability is pretty easy to track. He's really fond of Invisibility. He uses it on several occassions explicitly to get somewhere without being seen, and we can gather that he's used it by implication in many cases. There is also the implication in some places that he's fond of something like 'Expeditious Retreat' when he needs to move in a hurry.

Gandalf explicitly uses invisibility?

After 'Pyrotechnics', Gandalf casts 'Light' - another of his signature spells that he makes use of all the time. Gandalf seems to have almost unlimited ability with this spell, and its possibly a power of his staff....[H]e clearly cast 'Hold Portal' at Balin's tomb to keep the Balrog out.

As I recall, Gandalf found the magical struggle at the door -- with what turned out to be the Balrog -- so tiring that the party had to go without his magical light for a while.

 

[Gentlegamer]

Gary Gygax was describing the D&D magic system as "Vancian" way back in the early days of Dragon, and in as much as he created it, I'd say his description is accurate. See his article "The Dungeons and Dragons Magic System", republished in "Best of The Dragon" (vol. I). Purely Vancian? Well, no, in that Vance didn't present a magic system for a role-playing game, and had he done so, some certain amount of copyright infringement would have resulted had Mr. Gygax then used it for D&D. Also of note is that Mr. Gygax also refers to magic in Finnish mythology as similar to Vancian magic in that article, and if I'm remembering correctly, "Mordenkainen" was inspired by a Finnish hero...? Shall we debate that next, Emirikol the Chaotic?

Correct on all points, except the name Mordenkainen was chosen as a Finnish sounding name for play in Rob Kuntz's campaign, which drew heavily from Finnish legend.

 

[Cabral]

Hey, what about 'shatter'? "Your staff is broken!"

You know, Gandalf seems to be a good guy who doesn't always follow the rules and possibly non-human heritage and can do his schtick pretty much all day but one at a time... Could he be a Chaotic Good Warlock?

 

[GrumpyOldMan]

Is D&D magic purely Vancian or is it a mix with something else? Is it really how it worked in Jack Vance's books (I've never read any).

Aren't there some Tolkien and Robert E Howard magical elements mixed in there?



jh

Can I suggest that you actually read some of Jack Vance’s work!

The Dying Earth, The Eyes of the Overworld, Cugel’s Saga and Rhialto the Marvelous are the four main works where ‘Vancian’ magic is useds.

That way you can
1) Expand your fantasy reading.
2) Come to your own opinion on the similarities, instead of asking others.

 

[Turjan]

If you can't stand fantasy, how can you stand to play D&D?

I don't think that those two aspects are as connected as you suggest. I'm in the same boat: I like fantasy RPGs, but there's hardly any fantasy literature that makes me want to read it.

 

[Chupacabra]

Vance should be read if only to delight at the various schemes of Cugel the Clever. The hardest-working lazy man in all of fantasy literature. He is a gem of an unforgettable character.

The entire Dying Earth cycle is chock full of good game ideas.

 

[Turjan]

The entire Dying Earth cycle is chock full of good game ideas.

Indeed! As is Planet of Adventure, even though it's supposedly sci-fi.

 

[Gentlegamer]

Vance should be read if only to delight at the various schemes of Cugel the Clever. The hardest-working lazy man in all of fantasy literature. He is a gem of an unforgettable character.

The entire Dying Earth cycle is chock full of good game ideas.

It is also full of the wittiest dialog you'll ever read.