Is Dragon Magazine even *Relevant* anymore?

[jgbrowning]

I don't think Dragon is very relevant anymore. That's why we all sit around and talk about it....

Ok, humor aside, I really think that outside of WoTCs books, Dragon and Dungeon are the most relevant publications in the industry. And personally, I wouldn't be surprised that they are more relevant than some of WoTCs books, if for no other reason that the subject diversity and price point make it more accessible to more gamers.

joe b.

 

[kenobi65]

One thing that I would find useful would be NPC adventurers. One or two a month would be extremely useful.

I think the "Critical Threat" feature in Dungeon already addresses that need (though I'm not sure how frequently that appears anymore).

 

[Zaukrie]

Erik, thanks again for participating. Since the thread pops every month or so, at least you know we are all passionate about your Dragon.

I think the latest issues was an improvement, but even the petit tarrasque (sp?) could have had some game material added in somehow. As I said in my comments on the demon article, don't forget there are some of us not playing 13th level and higher characters.

I thought the Green Ronin books on cults/organizations were great. I see that the demon article may be "replaced" by articles like that. I think that is a good idea.

Still waiting to see what you're going to do with the minis articles.

 

[Andre]

The Problem with Dragon

This lead me to the wider question and sneaking suspicion that I didn’t really know if he could do anything, for the reason that, just maybe, Dragon has lost its relevancy.

There was a time – 20-25 years ago, when Dragon was the central place where gamers communicated with one another. Where we got our ideas, read reviews, heard about new products and read new rules for the first time.

You've summed up my feelings perfectly. I too remember when Dragon was new (my first issue was #7) and was one of the very, very few sources of extra game material. I still remember fondly the Forum where readers would discuss various issues, the columns by actual game designers adding extra ideas and tools for the game, even the comics that so captured the feel of the game (Fineous Fingers). But times change and I've been wondering for the past 3 years what role Dragon can and should fill within the hobby.

Do I need a quick adventure? I go to the WOTC website and download one. Or grab a freebie at a variety of sites. Or buy Dungeon (for which I just re-started a subscription, thanks to the recent changes). An adventure in Dragon would be a bit of nostalgia for me, but not really a reason to get it.

Do I need more classes, ala the Cavalier, the Ranger, the Barbarian, the Jester (I'm not kidding - it was in a very early issue!)? Nope. If I need a prestige class, I can find literally hundreds without even looking. Fortunately, Erik has clearly stated these are going away (mostly).

Do I need rules clarifications? As others have said, this is available on the WOTC website. It's nice to have it available also in Dragon for those players who get the magazine, but don't visit the website, but it takes up several pages in most issues.

Do I need it for community? For exchanging ideas? That's what EnWorld does for me, and much better to boot. Again, it's nice for those who don't visit this website and others, but really, how good a business model is it that Dragon should focus on those who don't use the web to enhance their gaming?

Do I need ideas? Always - and that seems to be the focus of the new magazine. But as others have pointed out, using the material is not always easy. Want to use an idea for spending xp's to boost character abilities? Gee...what issue was that article in? And that article that had a floorplan for an actual castle...? Darn, I can't find it and my game starts in an hour. This sort of thing happens all the time.

Even when I can find the material, I then need to get it into my notes - which usually means retyping it. Same with all those neat monsters, magic items, and such. When I first started gaming, everything was done by hand. Photocopying specific pages for use worked sometimes, but a lot of the material I transcribed into my game notes. That day is long gone - I have neither the time nor the inclination. Now I use a variety of software aids to make my gaming easier, faster, and better organized. But Dragon is still in stuck in the paper era. (For valid reasons: for reading, nothing - IMO - beats good old paper.) But it's a lot of work to get the material I do want to use into the documents I use in my games.

Where does this lead me? Three things:

1. The magazine will have to focus on ideas (I believe Erik used the word "evocative"). Rules and crunch will serve ideas, not the other way around. I believe Erik when he says that's where the magazine is headed.
2. The magazine desperately needs an exhaustive index. Posted online and updated regularly. In place of the Annual (which Erik has told us is too time-consuming to produce), how about an index of everything published in the previous year?
3. The magazine needs to make material available online. I understand that there are significant issues with this, as Paizo can't afford to have folks get the material for free. Something similar to the Dungeon maps (which subscribers have access to) might work. Whatever it takes, though, I think Dragon has to make using their material easier, which means providing digital versions of articles, creatures, items, etc. This one change would significantly alter the amount of use I gain from the magazine.

I will agree though that many gamers, even those who are online, do not use online resources for their gaming. Out of our group of close to 15 players only one or two others use the internet to get info and all of them are online.

While I agree that a majority of gamers do not use online resources for gaming, I suspect a majority also do not use publications such as Dragon. According to WOTC, over a million people worldwide play D&D (I forget the exact number), but I believe Erik stated in the other thread that Dragon's monthly paid issues totaled 58,000 a few months ago. That's a lot of people not using the magazine for their gaming. I suspect Dragon's readership tends to be more hardcore, in similar fashion to EnWorld's readership.

 

[D+1]

Dragon has become a player oriented magazine. Its a one stop shopping place for little rules widgets that will help their characters.

For me this is precisely the problem. The players DON'T go shopping for rules widgets unless your DM's run VERY odd campaigns. Once in a while a player might find a new widget in a rules supplement or in Dragon and ASK that it be included - and then the DM decides whether or not to ALLOW it and why. But players don't "go shopping" for such things because DM's (like me) simply have no need or desire to constantly inflate their campaigns with new rules, especially not when they're just to power up a player character with the widget-of-the-week.

From my perspective Dragon isn't doing anything that isn't being done better and faster online, or that isn't simply looking like sloppy seconds that isn't being included in harcover publications from other sources. If it weren't for the fact that I have a collection that starts BEFORE issue #1 I would have dropped my subscription a couple years ago and started buying Dungeon. Every month when I get my copy I leaf through it on the off chance that something might seem worth actually reading (and if I read it I never actually have any kind of need to use it) I read the comics, maybe a few letters talking about subjects already debated extensively twice in every major online forum over the last month, and then put it in a poly bag and onto the shelf.

I'd subscribe to Dungeon but I actually find it an inconvenient means of obtaining adventures. So few are going to be the correct level range for my current game, and fewer still will FIT my needs and desires even if they are the right level. That means gobs and gobs of adaptation and adjustment, or else needing to already HAVE several YEARS worth of Dungeon as a resource to draw upon before it's becoming worth the effort.

So I have to... make things up myself.

 

[D+1]

This doesn't mean Dragon can't be improved. Everything can be improved. Some of the ideas being tossed around here are plenty interesting. I just think that it should be kept in mind that we gamers who are online may not be the best to judge how to improve the magazine for its readership at large.

Which means that IF they are looking online for opinion on how best to increase the popularity of the magazine and increase readership are they really looking in a sensible place? If WE are not their readership then our opinions on the relevance of the magazine is... irrelevant to the magazine.

On the other hand, online gamers may be a small percentage of gamers in general and an even smaller percentage of their readership - but how many potential readers IS that who are out here agreeing that the magazine simply holds nothing for them insofar as they see?

 

[Razz]

I get Dragon for the crunch mainly. And the fact it's 100% WotC official. WotC has taken Dragon material and has been placing them in their new products every month. I do not and never will use 3rd party products, I have my reasons.

I like Dragon, it has never disappointed me and I don't think it will. To me, Dragon is that official source I get every month to provide material for my games that WotC don't have time or space to write up. Plus Dragon comes out with a good balance of fluff and crunch (lately they've been doing better with that aspect).

Dragon has provided tons of material that has made me and my gamers happy and interested. I don't see anything wrong with it. The only wrong thing that can happen would be if its publications were to cease.

The problem with gamers nowadays is everyone's too picky and likes to nag about things they don't like instead of just accepting things the way they are or making the best of what is there. People are starting to sound like fanatical, dissatisfied, classy movie critics (hence, one reason I never read movie reviews until ~after~ I've seen the movie, or sometimes never at all).

If there's something you like, take it, tweak it, enjoy it. If not, ignore it, rule zero it, whatever. If you have a problem that is minor in part to the community, roll with it. If it's a big problem to the community, band together and speak to the authorities about it.

Maybe it's because I'm a simple person by nature, and that is why I don't read between the lines with everything published by WotC. The only thing I get frustrated about sometimes is when they haven't published something I'd like to start seeing more of (like psionic articles), or more crunch material, etc. etc. but then again, that's my lone opinion against an entire community. I can't do anything about it except to be patient. I have to remind myself they have to please the majority over the minority (primarily for monetary reasons), that they're doing what they can to please a community, to please the current generation of gamers, and not everyone is going to get what they want all the time.

You know, this is just a game. People are starting to turn this into politics. This shouldn't turn into a debate similiar to the 2004 elections.

 

[Ry]

I agree with your points, Steelwind, but not with your conclusion. I think that you've pointed to good reasons that Dragon will slowly die and Dungeon will thrive. But rather than trying to make Dragon more like Dungeon as you suggest (which gets into diluting the product and trying to get me to buy a whole magazine for just one article) I don't see why Paizo doesn't just bulk up Dungeon with the few good articles from Dragon, and let Dragon die (although if there was only one mag, I'm sure it would be called Dragon, not Dungeon, regardless of the content).

 

[TerraDave]

One thing about 1E/2E balance is that a lot of DMs would say, "Everyone make up a 6th level character." With different XP tables for each class, there's a gaping chasm between that and "Everyone make a character with 40,000 XP." The latter will get you an 8th level thief and a 4th level barbarian (IDHTBIFOM, so deal with estimates), which is considerably more balanced than a 6th level barbarian and a 6th level thief.

That isn't too say there aren't still balance issues, just pointing out a common error that exasperates things.

Good point, though there is starting at 1st level, and that could be a long level back then

Actually, back in "the day" there was an article breaking down and comparing the classes, and was pretty critical of some of them--like the barbarian. I note this mostly becuase that critical tone is not something Dragon has had much of for the last 15-20 years.

 

[TerraDave]

Do I need more classes, ala the Cavalier, the Ranger, the Barbarian, the Jester (I'm not kidding - it was in a very early issue!)?

The berserker, the ninja, the anti-paladin, the healer, the ninja, the dualist, the ninja..