Is enlightened self-interest Good?

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Neutral - any action motivated by selfinterest is selfish and selfish is Neutral (and I beleive that the majority of people are essentially Selfish)

Selgishness strays towards good or evil depending on the specific actions taken ("yes I'm going donate to charity because it makes me feel good " vs "I'm gonna take this candybar without paying - its not gonna hurt anyone")
 

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Michael Morris said:
Enlightened self interest would definitely be a Sodrean or "black" attitude (the system has its roots in MtG). Sodrean character believe the worth of the individual comes before the society - that individual rights trump socieatal rights. This is the alignment we may most easily associate as being evil of the five, though that's a dangerous attitude to take because all five alignments in my system can adopt evil methods to accomplish their objectives.

I dig the whole thing up if you guys want me to - its still drifting around the server somewhere.

yes, please. sounds interesting. seems to me like white = good, black = evil, red = chaos, green = neutral, and blue = neutral, but that's very simplistic.
 

John Q. Mayhem said:
That has jack-all to do with my question. To rephrase it: Does doing good deeds out of purely selfish reasons mean that you have a good alignment?
I asked a more real-world question to Eolin because I was interested in his viewpoint, but I'm primarily concerned with D&D.

To rephrase it, does someone who is otherwise a good guy become not good if he is doing it for selfish reasons?

I'd say no, D&D is pretty stark, good and bad. Someone doing good is on the side of good. He intends to do good, not neutral, not evil. That is good. Love of deity, for the good of the country, enlightened self interest, the motivation behind it does not negate the goodness of what they are doing.
 

John Q. Mayhem said:
To rephrase it: Does doing good deeds out of purely selfish reasons mean that you have a good alignment?

I don't believe in anything but selfish reasons, so I'd have to say yes. (I believe, and feel free to disagree, that everything you do you do because you get some kind of reward for it - even if it's just the "warm fuzzy" feeling of making somebody else happy.)

I guess it depends on the good deeds that you do. If you do something good, and say, take gold for doing it, that might be Neutral. If you turn down the gold because you know it will make other people more happy, that's probably Good.

I'd sit down and talk to the players and see what they think, if alignment becomes an issue. (I think alignment is rarely an issue in D&D 3/3.5.)
 

Well, it's an alignment thread but I'll post my 2cents anyway. (Who am I kidding, I probably log more posts on alignment threads than any other kind).

Enlightened self interest=neutral as far as I can see. It looks like good but it isn't--just like good will often look like neutrality (everyone likes to eat) or even evil (how many children declare "you're doing this because you hate me"?) at times.

The true test of whether "enlightened" self-interest is actually good, neutral, or evil, will come when actual self-interest no longer looks like good (as far as I can tell, that's what enlightened means). Sooner or later, it inevitably will. A D&D PC will be hard pressed to go his entire career without coming to a situation where he can take an action that puts his life at significant risk in order to save an innocent or an ally. It's not self-interest, enlightened or otherwise, that will make the character do that. (Though self-interest does dictate that his companions believe that he would do that). Similarly, it will be revealed when the character faces a situation whereby he actually can significantly gain or avoid significant loss by abandoning, betraying, or otherwise injuring his allies or innocents. Every time, the character is the last man standing with a horde of treasure and unconscious companions, he has such an opportunity--even more of one if he has the skills to cover up his deception and/or treachery well. Even when that's not the case, a clever character will have many opportunities to make a "mistake" that would ensure the permanent demise of a companion and thus increase his profit from the joint venture.

Enlightened self interest is all well and good (ok, so it's probably neutral), but it's what happens when the long-term equation doesn't come down on the side of enlightenment that shows a character's true moral quality. And, to be blunt, self interest is not reliably enlightened.
 

Terwox said:
yes, please. sounds interesting. seems to me like white = good, black = evil, red = chaos, green = neutral, and blue = neutral, but that's very simplistic.

White good? No, white can be evil, horrifyingly so. Nazi Germany is an example white taken to it's evil extreme. Everyone is worthless before the needs of the state, and anyone outside the state is to be terminated or tortured without prejudice to destroy any threat they pose to the community, reall or imagined.

Here is the alignment system in Dusk

Alignment
In the Dusk setting alignment is a link leading back to creation itself. The setting has not nine but five alignments, and those alignments not only describe what a character believes is important in his life but also how he responds to magic and how it responds to him. Each alignment is named for the outer plane it is linked to: Aborean, Balcridrean, Sodrean, Shunrean and Valrean.
While the forces of alignment play an even more significant role in Dusk, they don’t interpret good and evil. This interpretation is rather left up to individuals, though all individuals tend to believe that what their alignment holds dear is good while what their enemy alignments believe is dear is evil.
Good and evil aren’t represented, but law and chaos certainly are. The Valrean alignment espouses law not so much as a force but as a vital tool in accomplishing its goals. Meanwhile both the alignments that oppose the Valrean mindset (Shunrean and Sodrean) espouse outlooks that would be classified as chaotic under the old system.
The alignment system of Dusk, while more pervasive (especially in the ways it affects magic), is also far more subtle. Any alignment can be good or evil (from our point of view at least) depending on how the individual interprets and executes his alignments precepts and goals.

Aborean
The aborean alignment is associated most strongly with life, nature, and green magic. Druids and rangers are required to have this alignment in order to receive their spells.
The Aborean is an interesting and often misunderstood alignment. Sure, it’s about nature and the natural way, but what does that really mean? Well, to Aboreans life is the most important and powerful thing in the world. In life all things are possible. Life will overcome – it will find a way. To an Aborean death is a necessary part of life. To kill to acquire food is a part of life, for the strongest and most able will survive and life, as a whole, grows stronger. Killing for sport is another matter entirely, and a hideous evil in the Aborean mind.
Aboreans are happiest watching things grow – be they grains or the cows grazing upon them. On an individual basis the Aborean belief is that everyone is born with potential, and it is best to let them live to see that potential.
Aboreans look to nature to see cycles and they revere and adore them. Coexistance with these cycles is a source of strength. Coming to understand them is a source of wisdom. However, the Aborean doesn’t wish to take the world apart to figure out how it works – given time and observation the world will reveal its secrets to the Aborean on its own terms and in its own time.
All the other alignments tend to want to reshape the world in some fashion to suit their desires, but the Aboreans want the world to remain exactly as it is and don’t want anyone to change it. Artificial change they feel is always for the worst and ultimately futile – for eventually nature takes back the land taken from her.
Aboreans see in the Valrean mindset a fellow alignment that values community and coexistance. They each understand that there is order in the world, though the Aboreans don’t understand why Valreans seem to need laws for every conceivable thing – to the point of denying the emotions that are part of themselves much of the time.
It is in the Shunreans that Aboreans find a fellow alignment that celebrates the power of emotions and instincts, though the Aboreans are sometimes amused by how blindly Shunreans will follow their feelings and disturbed by the destructive power their red magic can give them while in a rage.
As for Balcridreans, Aboreans find them to be distasteful and idealistic fools at best and destructive scoundrels at the worst. Balcridreans too often get so caught up in esoteric theories and formulaes that they can’t see the truth in front of them. Though this can be tolerated, the attitude many Balcridreans have towards the world is offensive to Aboreans. The Balcridreans see the world as nothing more than resources with which to build machines and cities without any care to the destruction these things can cause to nature. Hence the Aboreans actively seek to keep their moves checked lest they recast the world in an artificial mockery of its current self.
Aboreans view Sodreans as short-sighted, selfish morons. While Aboreans allow themselves to bend to nature’s will, Sodreans want nature (and everyone else for that matter) to bend to their will. Many Sodreans think nothing of hunting and killing for sport alone, a horrific concept to an Aborean. Hence the Sodreans must be stopped before they destroy anything in pursuit of their selfish desires.

Balcridrean
Members of this alignment cherish thought and learning above all else. Balcridreans wish to know as much as possible about anything and everything. Endlessly curious, Balcridreans are equally fascinated by what is and what could be.
Knowledge and the eternal quest for omniscience are the prime goals of the Balcridreans. Knowledge is everything to them, and when they aren’t learning they are developing plans and schemes to learn still more. This isn’t to say that all smart characters have this alignment though – it’s just that Balcridreans are preoccupied with learning before anything else – be that others, themselves, their emotions or the world around them. It’s not that they may not care about these things; it’s just that they are all secondary at best. The Balcridrean is an inquiring mind that has to know, and they don’t understand that the act of discovery itself can sometimes forever change what they have discovered.
Balcridreans are happy curled around an old tome studying or sitting at a desk, writing. Slow to actually take action to a fault, most Balcrideans want to make sure everything is in place before proceeding. This puts them at a disadvantage when haste is necessary – for there is not always time to “sew the last button upon the last coat of the last soldier in the army.”
Balcridreans feel that anything is possible if the right lessons are grasped and the right resources acquired. The world is nothing more to them but those resources – to aquire them, understand them and then use them.
In the Valreans the Balcrideans find an alignment that shares their love of planning and thinking things through, but they can’t quite understand the importance of precedent and they certainly don’t understand the value Valreans place on living in peace with nature. Just go ahead and reshape it goes an old Balcridian sentiment, what could possibly go wrong?
To the Balcridreans the Sodrean alignment is one that isn’t scared of the occasional ugliness of truth. Neither alignment understands the concept of passing judgement on knowledge, though unlike the Sodreans the Balcrideans understand that the application of some knowledge is dangerous no matter the perceived benefit. Balcrideans also can’t understand why Sodreans sometimes allow their selfishness to drive them to rash or reckless (in Balcridrean eyes) actions.
Balcridreans find Aboreans fustrating because they accept the world as is. Balcridreans have a never-ending series of why’s and how’s on the world and resent the Aborean opposition to allowing them to ‘tinker” with nature in order to learn about it their way. Balcrideans think the best way to learn about something is to take it apart. While Aboreans insist that nature is more than the sum of its parts, the Balcrideans want to find out about those parts first and worry about the sum later. If the Aboreans won’t get out of the way, they’ll just have to be dealt with.
Shunreans embrace everything Balcridreans pride themselves in shunning. Balcridreans believe knowledge paves the way to victory – Shunreans believe that passion does; Balcridreans prefer to think – Shunreans prefer to act; Balcridreans believe that rash actions are deadly – Shunreans believe waiting is deadly; Balcridreans are cold intellects – Shunreans are renowned for their hot tempers (and spells).

Shunrean
Freedom is the most important thing to the Shunreans, and they pursue it with untamed passion. This alignment fully embraces emotions of all types and the Shunrean heart is guided by how it feels, never stopping to think about why. No alignment is as caring in love or deadly in fury than the Shunreans. Barbarians need to have the Shunrean alignment to tap into their hearts and use their rage ability. Bards require this alignment in order to be in touch with the passion that drives music.
Unlike other alignments, Shunreans don’t set long term goals or plans, rather they live exclusively in the moment. Many of them are daredevils seeking to milk every ounce of adreniline they can out of existence by taking chances. This isn’t to say that they are incapacle of planning or setting goals, it’s just that these tend to be short term and their execution haphazard. Methodical is not a word to use to describe them.
Shunreans enjoy freedom, including the freedom gained by living impulsively and without a plan. They are firm believers in the principle that life is a journey and not a destination. Despite the violence they and their spells are capacle of, friends are important to Shunreans. They enjoy sharing their feelings after all and enjoy personal relationships with a few others.
Freedom is the principle underlying all other Shunrean thought. As long as they are free to act as they will when they will, they care little for other concerns. They also believe that freedom must be extended to everyone, and to this end they don’t interfere with the lives of strangers unless they present a threat.
Shunreans find Sodreans to be kindred free spirits, though they don’t understand why the Sodreans are so insular and selfish, and they certainly don’t appreciate the Sodrean need to dominate others.
In the Aboreans the Shunreans see fellow lovers of passion and emotion, though they don’t understand why the Aboreans sometimes restrain their emotion for the good of nature. Creatures in nature can act unfettered the Shunreans argue, so why can’t we.
As to Valreans, Shunreans hate them and their uncountable laws. “Who gives others the right to tell me what to do?” is a question asked by many a Shunrean. Sure, you listen to your parents, your lovers, and your friends, but why give authority in your life to someone who doesn’t know you, doesn’t care for you. It’s not so much following orders that bother Shunreans – they can and do follow the orders of their peers. The problem lies in asking a Shunrean to follow orders from an organization or other faceless authority – they constantly balk at this concept. If the Shunreans are to be free to follow their destiny the Valreans must be defeated.
And the Balcridreans? They are stupid and plodding philosophers scared to come out of their cloistered learning cells and live. What is life without passion? Without love? Without fury and all other emotions? These aren’t as the Balcridreans say “things which cloud the mind,” but rather they are things that make life worth living. A dangerous assumption though is that Shunreans can’t think or plan – they indeed can but when they do they, unlike the Balcridreans, put passion and creativity into their work; as opposed to the cold logic of the Balcridreans. If Shunreans are to be free to create they must stay clear of the banality of Balcridrean thought.

Sodrean
Sodreans cherish three things: me, myself, and I. They view the world in this light as well – everyone is trying to get ahead in life so why pretend that it is different. While the opponents of this alignment call it selfish, Sodreans call it honest.
Sodreans want to gain as much personal power as they can so as to further advance their own adjendas. Their ultimate goal is omnipotence. They have no qualms about taking what they need and what they want unless someone stronger is around to stop them, for isn’t the law of nature survival of the fittest? And Sodreans are intent on doing everything they can to insure they are the fittest. This said most Sodreans understand the value of restraint, for reckless power grabs can backfire. It’s useless to take something you don’t have the strength to keep ahold of.
The term evil is used to describe Sodreans often enough, but this label is unfair. All the Dusk alignments have a capacity for evil actions in order to further their goals. Sodreans put themselves before others and believe that their own needs come before anyone else; but that attitude doesn’t preclude acts of kindness – though admittedly when a Sodrean is being nice to you chances are he wants something from you that he can’t steal for some reason. The “me first” attitude of Sodreans does mean that this alignment has the highest propensity to commit evil acts and it is also the alignment with the most infighting. But there is a difference between being inclined towards being evil and actually being evil.
It should be noted that Sodrean selfishness isn’t entirely bad. The importance of the individual is a key concept in capitalism and modern democracy.
Good implies, among other things, a respect for moral authority. Sodreans don’t believe in morality at all – they are amoral – but this isn’t the same as acting immorally. An immoral person actively seeks to be disruptive in society and to overturn morality. An amoral one simply believes that morality doesn’t mean anything. This having been said, Sodreans have no compulsions about acting in a moral fashion if this helps them get ahead.
The problem is that Sodreans don’t usually have a problem with doing anything to get ahead. They don’t pass moral or ethical judgements on their actions, they just evaluate whether or not the action is a good idea. Stealing is a good idea only if you’re sure you can get away with it. Many Sodreans don’t feel that the problems created defying the local laws are worth their trouble. These are the types who will do everything they can within the law to get ahead. And these guys are no less Sodrean than their outlaw counterparts, though they do have more of an air of respectability.
In Balcridreans the Sodreans have an ally who is willing to learn whatever is necessary to get ahead. Balcrideans aren’t afraid of the occasional ugliness of truth though they are sometimes afraid of the consequences of using that knowledge. Then again, to the Sodreans they seem to be afraid of taking any action at all without overplanning.
The Shunreans earn Sodrean respect by acting in their own best interests most of the time. Unfortunately they are so easily swayed that they can be tricked into doing things that, in the long run, aren’t in their best interest. Then again, that’s probably fortunate – it makes them more easily controlled.
The Valreans make Sodreans sick. They believe in ludicrous concepts that defy the laws of nature (as Sodreans interpret them). Protect the weak from the strong? Bah, the weak should be culled from the earth. Equality for everyone? Bah, the best and brightest deserve to get ahead in life, and the weak and stupid deserve to eek out whatever lot they can. Valrean emphasis on morality is also repugnant to Sodreans – such idealism is meaningless in the end, and it has no value.
Aboreans embrace a similar sort of idocy as the Sodreans see it. Life is important yes, but only if it can be used to serve you. If its existence doesn’t benefit you, why care?

Valrean
“The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.” This sentiment is the key of the Valrean alignment, the alignment of peace, harmony, order and community. This is the alignment of paladins and monks, each of which follow and excersize rigid discipline in their training and in their lives.
Global harmony for all people is the goal of the Valreans. To achieve this harmony, Valreans embrace and use law. Valreans also have the most extensively codified and developed religions, though gods exist in every alignment – their worship is strongest in the alignment were subservience is a virtue.
It is easy to call the Valrean mindset the “good” alignment of Dusk, but this would be a mistake. True, Valrean thought espouses many of the moral laws most people would call good – The sanctity of human life, peace, harmony, and so on. But Valreans also believe that individuals can and must be sacrificed for the good of their society, though that sacrifice should be voluntary if it must be enforced, so be it. Valreans also believe that those outside the group have no rights whatsoever. Before calling Valrea good consider that facism is a very Valrean concept, and there are few among us that would call facism good.
Valreans believe in a set of moral laws and that these laws should be followed at all times. Morality, to Valreans, is cut and dried – there are no shades of grey. In addition to this, Valreans have a highly developed sense of honor. Honor defines an individuals place in society, and a slight to a Valrean’s honor will provoke a fight.
In the Aboreans the Valreans see an ally who shares their love of community and order, albeit natural order. If only the Aboreans would go by the book more instead of following their gut.
In Balcridreans the Valreans find an ally who loves learning and order, though they are bit too inclined to delve into things best left alone for Valrean tastes.
To the Valreans, the Sodreans are a blight. Their complete lack of moral sensibility and respect for moral authority makes them dangerous mavericks at best and enemies that must be destroyed at worst. If the Valreans are ever to have harmony, the Sodreans must be wiped out.
And the Shunreans? The Valreans cannot and will not tolerate their constant disregard for civil authority and their attempts to drive the world into chaos and anarchy. If the world is to ever know peace the Shunreans must be put down.


Conclusion
In addition to describing these new alignments, I've also described their attitudes towards each other. As you can see, each alignment sees it's enemies as evil and itself as good. Zealots of given alignments never get along, but most characters aren't zealots and so even if the party has characters of different aligments they should be able to function together. They may bicker (Han (black) & Leia (White) ) but that doesn't have to be destructive to the campaign.

It also robs the ability of alignment detection spells to serve as instant friend or foe identification.
 
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Voadam said:
To rephrase it, does someone who is otherwise a good guy become not good if he is doing it for selfish reasons?

I think folks are considering this to be a bit too digital. Alignment is a spectrum.

My thought is that alignment is a sort of long-term average of actions, intentions and motivations. So, how good the person ends up being depends upon the overall balance.

Thus, enlightened self-interest is a neutral motivation. But if the actions and intentions are good, the net end balance is goodness. This person might not be as thoroughly good to the bone as one who does good acts for no reward whatsoever, but he's still good.
 
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LRathbun said:
Action does not determine morality, motive does.

Actions motivated by a love of self above a love of others are selfish (Bad).
Actions motivated by a love of self equal to love of others are non-selfish (Good or Neutral, depending on the actions in question).

Just because you are smart enough to realize that some action that you would have done for someone else is also good for you, doesn't make it bad, or selfish.

Likewise, just because you are smart enough to realize that some action that you would have done for yourself is also good for someone else, doesn't make it good, or selfless.

IMO

Okay, consider this hypothetical scenario: I am a D&D NPC. I sincerely believe that gnomes are an evil and inferior race, and must be eliminated from the face of the campaign setting for their own good and the good of us all. I sacrifice other personal ambitions, laboring only towards the noble cause of gnomish genocide. Sincere motivation to do good in the world? Check. Evil? Double check. Proof by contradiction that D&D morality is action-based, not motive-based. I think. :/

--Impeesa--
 

Yeee! I got asked a question of. Sorry for the 8 hour-delay, I've been at work.

I got asked (hehe):
Regardless of D&D, would you consider a murderer who by random chance never killed anyone but bad people (drug dealers, rapists, etc.) good?


I'd say that his actions have good consequences. That is, actions and results are things that I give the good qualifer to, not people. We can sort of ad hoc call a person good just in case their actions promote a generaly good world.

However, if the person was randomly killing people (maybe, find them in a phone book?), then in general it will not be the case that these actions are good. Just in the case that they only kill people who would have caused a worse world. But that's a really unusual set of circumstances. Ethics are not, I think, things that always work. Instead, they break down around the unusual circumstances. Much like just about any artificially created system.

Ethics, I say, are a thing we use in order to determine our actions. I ask myself, fairly reguarly: Will this action, so far as I can be known to tell, create a better world, or at worst one no worse? If the answer is no, then it is unjustifiable for me to take this action. That I often do what is unjustifiable speaks about me, not about my ethics.

Basically, we all screw up. And that's ok. If we were going to create a deontologically-based ethic around consequentialism, the only rule would be something like:

Be cool and Chill out.

A simplification, sure, but not a bad one. If more people would just chill out, I believe the world would be better.

There's another 2 cents of mine.
Eolin.
 

Do unto others as you'd have them do unto you.

Or however it goes.

The point is, it could easily be taken as a mantra of enlightened self-interest. You want people to do good by you, so you do good by them. Now, so long as you do realize that many won't follow that tenant - that you might not be rewarded, that plenty of people just can't help you and so on - I think it's good.

It's only for those who naively believe that, yes, doing something nice for someone else is guaranteed to bring a reward that I'd peg it at neutral.

So long, though, as you realize that you may not be rewarded, I still think you're doing good. As I see it, that's how numerous religions work - do good and get rewarded or don't and be punished. Typically, there's some sort of pay off or punishment for acting in a certain way. It's rarely "Just because."
 

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