Grabuto138
First Post
Read page 290 of the Player's Handbook. It is pretty much all there. And if it isn't there ... then it isn't there, if you know what I mean.
Is Grab Useless?
- Thread starter Insight
- Start date
Grab is especially useless since:
1) For non-monsters (and most monsters), it takes a Standard action to grab and a Move action to escape. So, one gets one chance to grab per round vs. two chances in a round to escape. Or, the opponent can attack and try to escape.
2) Fort/Reflex increases by stat + 1/2 level whereas anyone with Acrobatics/Athletics skill gets 5 + stat + 1/2 level (~75%), hence, it is often easier to escape than it is to grab (~50%).
3) Push/Slides 100% chance of escape additionally makes grab a joke.
1) For non-monsters (and most monsters), it takes a Standard action to grab and a Move action to escape. So, one gets one chance to grab per round vs. two chances in a round to escape. Or, the opponent can attack and try to escape.
2) Fort/Reflex increases by stat + 1/2 level whereas anyone with Acrobatics/Athletics skill gets 5 + stat + 1/2 level (~75%), hence, it is often easier to escape than it is to grab (~50%).
3) Push/Slides 100% chance of escape additionally makes grab a joke.
keterys
First Post
You always have an enhancement bonus to Fort and Ref, and often don't have one to the other skill(s) so that's not as bad as you make it out to be.
PallidPatience
First Post
Being grabbed makes you immobilised.
Immobilisation means you grant combat advantage.
So, you can't move, and people get +2 (and rogues get SA) against you.
What's not to like?
Immobilisation means you grant combat advantage.
So, you can't move, and people get +2 (and rogues get SA) against you.
What's not to like?
Always? Clerics don't. Wizards don't. But, Wizards still use the Grab/Escape mechanic for Hand spells.
And, most monsters have either an extremely high Dexterity or Strength (sometimes both). This gives them a boost to Acrobatics or Athletics that is typically higher than the boost to the respective Defense of most PCs (only one PC gets a +2 enhancement here, 3 classes get +1, and 4 classes get +0) due to Dex/Int plus class bonus, even if they do not possess the Acrobatics skill.
Basically, the mechanics for this outright suck. It's mathematically unbalanced because it is:
1) (0 or 5) + stat + 1/2 level vs. 0 to 2 class bonus + stat + 1/2 level.
2) Two defense rolls vs. one attack roll.
3) Monsters are often higher level than PCs in many encounters (gaining on +1/2 level) and also tend to have higher Dex or Str.
So not only are the rolls stacked in the defender's favor, but the attacker gives up a damaging attack to gain this, plus the defender gets two chances to escape if he wants to.
Plane Sailing
Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
I wonder how it would work if either
a) grab was a move action
or
b) escape was a standard action?
How well do the existing rules support multiple grapplers? I'm toying with the idea of if a second person successfully grapples someone who is already immobilised, then the target becomes restrained instead.
After all, I want to be able to run scenes when the guards attempt to grab and pin down the bar room brawler, rather than hack away with their halberds and then say "Oh, he's unconscious when he reaches 0hp".
a) grab was a move action
or
b) escape was a standard action?
How well do the existing rules support multiple grapplers? I'm toying with the idea of if a second person successfully grapples someone who is already immobilised, then the target becomes restrained instead.
After all, I want to be able to run scenes when the guards attempt to grab and pin down the bar room brawler, rather than hack away with their halberds and then say "Oh, he's unconscious when he reaches 0hp".
firesnakearies
Explorer
NaturalZero
Hero
Note, he said enhancement bonus, not class bonus (enhancement as in the bonus granted by a neck slot item). You still have a point though. Monsters' Str and/or Dex is usually monstrous enough to make it a useless tactic.
The real reason Grab isn't the greatest tactic is because your hands are usually full.
The fancy-schmancy attempts at proving it mathematically broken seem to fall apart once you look up actual monsters you'd want to grab (skirmishers and lurkers, mostly). But the fact that your typical character is carrying something important in both hands is an awfully big deal. Fighters, Paladins, strength based Clerics, Rangers, and Warlords- they're all likely to have both hands full. The only classes that might not are Rogues and the various arcane spellcasters, none of which are well suited for grabbing.
My hope for Grab is this- I want a third fighter type. You know how we have a fighter type for two handed weapons, and one for one handed weapons? I want one that uses versatile weapons, and which has associated powers that involve using their ability to easily obtain a spare hand (at the cost of 1 damage per hit) to maximize their ability to grab people and stab them.
The fancy-schmancy attempts at proving it mathematically broken seem to fall apart once you look up actual monsters you'd want to grab (skirmishers and lurkers, mostly). But the fact that your typical character is carrying something important in both hands is an awfully big deal. Fighters, Paladins, strength based Clerics, Rangers, and Warlords- they're all likely to have both hands full. The only classes that might not are Rogues and the various arcane spellcasters, none of which are well suited for grabbing.
My hope for Grab is this- I want a third fighter type. You know how we have a fighter type for two handed weapons, and one for one handed weapons? I want one that uses versatile weapons, and which has associated powers that involve using their ability to easily obtain a spare hand (at the cost of 1 damage per hit) to maximize their ability to grab people and stab them.
