Is Hackmaster a joke?

[Templetroll]

Especially with the crappy modules they've put out for it, mocking the originals (like "Smackdown the Slavers").
Give me a freakin' break. How is it not a joke? How is it not a slap in the face of D&D fans?

Now don't make me get out my "Tunnels and Trolls" and start quoting from that!!! There is a long history of games making fun of D&D and gamers! I've met people who actually enjoyed T&T more than D&D!

Regarding the modules - I got a copy of "Quest for the Unknown", based on the classic D&D module "Into the Unknown". (Disclaimer: It was received as a free introduction from Kenzer on this very board.) In the TSR module there were several points that were put in with no reason for the occurances. I'll mention a couple without spoiling anything.

The Hackmaster version fills in the blanks and comes up with a cool little soap opera involving Rogahn's mistress; it also makes better use of the cat in the bottle found within the stronghold. It also included suggestions for new DMs, like the original, that would allow further adventures to be based off of this scenario. Naturally, some mentioned how to link it to the Borderlands Keep module but TSR did the same kind of thing.

Now, I prefer 3e to HM, as a system, at this time. I will check out HM pproducts because their humor and some of the additions to the classic modules may be as useful as this first one was for me.

 

[JeffB]

I'm kinda on the fence about the game.

The books are fun to read when I'm in the mood. But sometimes the "silliness" turns me off.

That being said, HM is a gold mine for the the 1E and 2E player as there are a lot of cool things you can steal for your 1E/2E game..a few off the top of my head...

1) A better set of Ability score tables that distributes bonuses and penalties for each score similar to 3E.

2) a very cool mechanic for raising atrributes: all abilities have a percentile score ala the old strength score. You recieve a number of extra percentiles each level....eventualy you can "roll over" e.g 15/99 rolls over to 16.

3) A much better, and more useful skill system (percentile based) than NWP's or secondary skills ever could have hoped to be. Some are a bit silly, but they are few..most are serious and straightforward.

4) A quasi-feat system that allows you to "purchase" special abilities..(again some are silly, but they are few)

5) Not that it was hard to come up with, but it has spell failure for mages wearing armor rules (like 3E)

So, I like it from that standpoint...were I to run a AD&D game, I would no doubt be house-ruling" it with these elements from HM.

At the same time though, HM by the book can get VERY rules intense...combat especially....which is a pet-peeve of mine..but that doesn't mean the game sucks..it just isn't my style..hell, think 3E combat is too rules intense...I hate complicated rules systems (unless they can be "stripped down" to the essentials without breaking the system..e.g Rolemaster)

I bought the Quest for the Unknown module (their version of B1)..yes it has some very cool serious and straightforward additions to the module that I like..however there is some silliness (no surpise there)...the multiple Magic Mouths that say lewd things and whatnot...that stuff annoys me...Were I to run B1 again I would likely add the cool stuff from Kenzer's version..just like I would add the cool stuff from the HM rulebooks to my 1E/2E game...

So IMO, I think HM is a great supplement to the AD&D games, and I wouldn't mind playing it for a change of pace, but as I'm a DM 100% of the time, I would likely never run a "true" HM game by the book(s).

 

[Gargoyle]

I have no problem with folks who like HM or the game itself. Most RPGs (and gamers!) take themselves too seriously, and HM is a breath of fresh air in that regard.

But it's not for me. Enough silliness creeps into my "serious" games so that I have no need of a system with humor built in. The exception would be a game completely focused on humor for a fun diversion, like Paranoia, and therefore light on the rules.

 

[Holy Bovine]

Wow. I don't think words can describe how low I feel right now. My comments weren't called for, and I humbly apologize for everything I've said on this thread.

Sorry.

Thank you greatbudda - that is really appreciated.

I'm surprised that so many still think Hackmaster is not a solid role playing game in its own right. Its products get very good reviews (see the Hackmaster PHB and Games Master Guide reviews here on this very site), It won the Best RPG of 2001 at Origins (granted only the first time its been awarded but still a prestious honour) and has many supplements and adventures published for it. Kenzer & Co. also support 3E D&D with their Kingdoms of Kalamar products (not my cup of tea but I can recognize good writing and setting design when I see it).

I can see if you don't like the paraody angle and don't find it amusing (comedy is a very subkective thing after all) but the comedy aspect is really just window dressing - there are so many other new additions to the basic AD&D 1E in Hackmaster as to make it a new game. Things such as Honor; where PCs get and lose Honor for doing or not doing amd Honor has a direct effect upon how well you PC does in combat and social situations. It is even possible to have too much honor where you can attract the wrath of the 'gawds'. The vastly expanded character generation system alone makes rolling up characters an adventure in itself and many aspects of your characters personality can come to light just as this stage.

I really feel that 2E should have been like Hackmaster with more rules, 'atmosphere' and focus on role playing (yes HM is very focused on RP - combat is important but there is so much time and effort devoted towards RPing in both the PHB and GMG that it cannot be ignored).

Now that being said I play more 3E D&D than HM and love both systems (and don;t even get me started about Warhammer RPG! )

 

[Psion]

Good point about the eight Hacklopedias. Who needs that many monster books for one game?

Looks at bookshelf. Notes MM, MMII, MOF, CC, CC2, LOH, AoA, DL, NL, Monsternomicon, and Minions.

I think I'll stick to the "Hackmaster is a Joke" line. And if anyone is keeping tally, I am an "ENWorlder who doesn't like Hackmaster." And for the record, I did have some HM books, until I sold them on ebay.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

My opinion on Hackmaster is entirely formulated by the fact that I had a really great time playing it. And that that time was very memorable and unique as far as my sessions went.

As a mostly 3e player I really appreciated a lot of what hackmaster had to offer. There were a variety of mechanics and dynamics that have profitably informed my 3e experience.

The system for honor was a fantastic encouragement for role-playing that people, in my experience, otherwise rarely think of such as burying the dead, actively giving to the needy, looking out for rep, and going for the glorious shot. Party contracts are a nice addition, and I loved the creativity of the monsters, particularly in that many of them seemed to pray on each other or other parts of the ecology rather than being totally oriented towards PC races.

Most interestingly, Hackmaster proved to me that humor and near meta-game thinking could be incorporated into a very enjoyable and productive role-playing experience without cutting down on the other elements. Difficult to do, yes, but well worth my while as a goal in my 3e gaming.

I wouldn't deny that Hackmaster is a joke, but I would argue that the game works on a lot of other levels. My right hand may not know that my left hand is laughing but I'm having a great time.

 

[ArthurOPodd]

Ok, I came over from the hackmaster boards to give my 2 coppers about the seriousness of hackmaster. We seem to have strayed from the topic somewhat.

I remember playing ad&d 1 or 2 Ed. from about 5 pm to 3 am, and actually gaming for 2-4 hours. Why? The remaining time was spent quoting monty python, engaging in pun contests whenever an npc spoke, or telling the dumb pc to shut up for 1/2 hour straight and somehow finding "shaddup" so funny that I laughed until I puked. No, we weren't on drugs.

Somehow the disdain for hackmaster as "not serious" seems kind of pointless.

So far I've been through little keep and am starting smackdown the slavers. The writing and detail are good, and most of the action is the nailbiting variety. And guess what? In a 6 hour game we actually spend about 5 1/2 hours gaming.

Do I have problems with the hackmaster system? Of course. I think the GM vs PC as antagonists trying to kill each others characters is taken too seriously by some. I object to the "you must have official hackmaster miniatures or else" rule set up when no hackmaster minis were available. I think the penalties for cherry picking quirks and flaws are heavy handed to those of us who've been gaming long enough to come up with our own character concepts. I miss the Thri Kreen PC I made years ago.

To me hackmaster is an improvement of the game. It takes the rules as they existed before TSR sold out to the "gamers are satanists" crowd and abolished assassins, deleted demons and devils and then re-released everything under new names and rules so you'd have to buy it again. Hackmaster improves those rules by more emphasis on roleplaying and character background. I have 3E, I might even play it someday, but it isn't the same. I steadfastly re-worked the assassin character I started in 1E to meet new rules as they came out, and eventually she became an 18th/19th mage/assassin double class. The 3E phb doesn't allow that. I don't have the "Epic" book. So long old character.

Hackmaster doesn't allow her either. Her goal was to be a Deity & that isn't allowed in hackmaster. Either way it's become "start game over", and for now I'm going with hackmaster to see how things go.

 

[Breakdaddy]

Re: Re: Is Hackmaster a joke?

You say this like it's a positive thing.



Neither does "Friends". DIE, UNENDING SITCOM! DIE! DIE! DIE!



You say this like it's a negative thing.

Hung, you never cease to amaze, my friend. Never.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

Re: Re: Re: Is Hackmaster a joke?

Hung, you never cease to amaze, my friend. Never.

I always wondered about the big wangers in hongs posts, now I know its because he's hung. And hung in a way that never ceases to amaze.

 

[Glyfair]

By my definitions, Hackmaster isn't a joke. I was a joke. What you saw referred to in the KoDT strips was a joke. However, when they decided to publish it, it became something else. The only system I own that actually seems to be a joke is Spawn of Fashan (that wasn't intended to be one, but became one).

Now, Hackmaster is a parody. It has elements that aren't and can certainly be used as a purely serious game. It also has built in humerous elements.

However, I just don't think it actually is a joke.

Glyfair of Glamis