Is heavy armor overblown?

[drothgery]

Actually, 4d6 drop lowest, roll six times gives a point buy average of very close to 25.

(I've just created a little computer program to simulate it, and after 10,000 stat arrays, 25 was very closest to the average).

Alternatively, the average for 4d6 drop lowest is 12.25 (approximately). Call that 4 points; so the total is 24 points, plus an additional one for the .25 => 25 point buy.

Cheers!

There was a thread on this a while ago, where a lot of people wrote programs to figure out the average PB value of roling dice (some by trying to figure probabilities, some using "Monte Carlo" methods like you're suggesting), and everyone (including me) came up with an answer in the 29-31 range if you eliminated "hopeless" characters (at least one stat above 13, total modifier greater than zero). The variations mostly depended on how a hopeless character was defined, and whether stats of 7 or lower were given a negative PB value or just always counted as zero. Mine ended up with an average just under 31; the VB.NET 2.0 code is in the sblock...

[sblock]

Public Class Form1

    Private Sub GoBtn_Click(ByVal sender As System.Object, ByVal e As System.EventArgs) Handles GoBtn.Click
        Dim iterationsCount As Integer
        Dim totalPoints As Long = 0
        Dim avgPoints As Double

        If Integer.TryParse(Me.NumTb.Text, iterationsCount) Then
            Dim rnd As New System.Random

            For i As Integer = 0 To iterationsCount
                totalPoints += RollCharacter(rnd)
            Next

            avgPoints = totalPoints / iterationsCount
            RsltsLbl.Text = avgPoints.ToString
        End If
    End Sub

    Private Function RollCharacter(ByVal rnd As Random) As Integer
        Dim charPoints As Integer = 0
        Dim diceRslts As New List(Of Integer)
        Dim rollValue As Integer
        Dim maxVal As Integer = 0
        Dim totalMod As Integer = 0
        Dim maxStat As Integer = 0

        For i As Integer = 1 To 6
            'roll 4d6, drop the lowest
            rollValue = 0
            diceRslts.Clear()

            For d As Integer = 0 To 3
                diceRslts.Add(rnd.Next(1, 7))
            Next

            diceRslts.Sort()

            For d As Integer = 1 To 3
                rollValue += diceRslts(d)
            Next

            'get point value, adjust total modifier
            Select Case rollValue
                Case 3
                    totalMod += -4
                    charPoints += 0
                Case 4
                    totalMod += -3
                    charPoints += 0
                Case 5
                    totalMod += -3
                    charPoints += 0
                Case 6
                    totalMod += -2
                    charPoints += 0
                Case 7
                    totalMod += -2
                    charPoints += 0
                Case 8
                    totalMod += -1
                    charPoints += 0
                Case 9
                    totalMod += -1
                    charPoints += 1
                Case 10
                    totalMod += 0
                    charPoints += 2
                Case 11
                    totalMod += 0
                    charPoints += 3
                Case 12
                    totalMod += 1
                    charPoints += 4
                Case 13
                    totalMod += 1
                    charPoints += 5
                Case 14
                    charPoints += 6
                    totalMod += 2
                Case 15
                    charPoints += 8
                    totalMod += 2
                Case 16
                    charPoints += 10
                    totalMod += 3
                Case 17
                    charPoints += 13
                    totalMod += 3
                Case 18
                    charPoints += 16
                    totalMod += 4
            End Select

            maxStat = Math.Max(maxStat, rollValue)
        Next

        If totalMod > 0 AndAlso maxStat > 13 Then
            Return charPoints
        Else
            Return RollCharacter(rnd)
        End If

    End Function
End Class

[/sblock]

 

[MerricB]

Grr... my computer crashed, wiping out my original program. Once I rebuilt it, the median values were 28 or 29, as you say.

Interesting.

 

[Endur]

Heavy Armor is great when your average stat is 10. i.e. no Dex modifier. i.e. normal human warriors, etc.

PC's however, seem to have an average Dex of 14. There are some PCs with a lower dex, but most seem to have 14 or higher.

With a significant Dex modifier, light armor can be better than heavy armor.

 

[the Jester]

Heavy armor is ok. What suxxors is medium armor.

I have some homebrewed feats to help make armor more useful.

 

[Crothian]

Heavy armor is ok. What suxxors is medium armor.

I have some homebrewed feats to help make armor more useful.

I would actually say aromr in general is bad. Once you get to mid and high levels armor becoems less important as there are a dozen other ways to improve your AC. Armor is just another number except it can restict movment unlike everything else. Armor in the game needs an overhaul.

 

[Ace]

Unless the GM gives out really cool magic armor or prohibits magic item buying only a few armor types are actually used past low level anyway --

Most of the players IMC go for mobility so we normally don't get more than 1 "plate" guy per party -- YMMV a bit here

Leather (for Druids) --Occasionally you might see something weird like an Ironwood Breastplate or Dragonhide Studded but most of the time Druids just Wildshape or use magic. Oh yeah If the old 3e Leather Scale is used this is defualt for Druids

MW Studded Leather -- Rogues and Sneaky Types.

MW Chain Shirt occasionally a Non MW Chain Shirt is used at lower levels and kept until a magic one is commissioned

Mithril Breastplate -- Low level Barbarians often go with a plain Breastplate

Full Plate (for low Dex types and Dwarves)

Mithril Full Plate for Barbarians and Medium Armor types (warmages frex) and the occasional multi classed Warlock with the armored caster feat and a yen for AC

All of the other armor types are much less efficient and rarely used

 

[Kem]

Actually, 4d6 drop lowest, roll six times gives a point buy average of very close to 25.

(I've just created a little computer program to simulate it, and after 10,000 stat arrays, 25 was very closest to the average).

Alternatively, the average for 4d6 drop lowest is 12.25 (approximately). Call that 4 points; so the total is 24 points, plus an additional one for the .25 => 25 point buy.

Cheers!

Alreday been pointed out, but for backup...

If you rolled average and had all 12s you qualify for a reroll, even if 1 in 4 of those rolls was 13.

When I was helping someone roll up a character this was an issue. I have never seen someone botch so many characters in a row in my life.

 

[D+1]

But if I'm a scout with a high Dex wearing a mithral chain shirt, I don't see where I come out all that far behind a guy in mithral plate mail. Wearing the shirt, I have an AC 20. Wearing the plate, I'd have a 21. Big deal. My skirmish AC bonus will compensate most of the time.

Mind you, it's not just this one article. Light armor is constantly treated like a big liability. I don't see where it is. In fact, I'd say heavy armor sucks.

Couple of things: low AC IS a big deal in a relative sense. Low AC = more physical abuse on a regular basis. However, the higher the level the less your initially low AC is going to show. Take two characters, ignore dex for the moment, and give one studded leather and put the other in plate - AC 13 vs AC 18. Now give them both +5 armor and +5 protection of some other sort because they're a bunch of levels higher. AC 23 vs AC 28 The gap between the two AC's is still the same but the significance of that difference is much less. Now if you consider that a character that is nominally limited to lighter armor is much more likely to compensate in character design with a higher DEX those AC's are going to be even closer.

But the point of the article (it seems to me) was that while a scout character COULD wear heavier armor it will tend to limit the advantages of a higher dex as well as penalize the skills that a scout relies on making it a doubly losing choice. So in that sense, you bet heavy armor sucks.

I guess it doesn't matter ultimately whether the armor is heavy or a character wears none at all but what the resulting AC actually is. With adjustments to dex and skill checks the TYPE of armor actually worn isn't always a simple choice.

 

[Thanee]

Actually, 4d6 drop lowest, roll six times gives a point buy average of very close to 25.

Nope.

Alternatively, the average for 4d6 drop lowest is 12.25 (approximately). Call that 4 points; so the total is 24 points, plus an additional one for the .25 => 25 point buy.

This is a rather naive way to calculate it and does not figure in the spread of every individual roll, tho, which is very important, because of the higher cost of abilities above 14.

The average *without* hopeless characters is already above 28 PB (~28.5 IIRC), if you weigh rolls below 8 with a negative PB value.

As drothgery said, there was a thread about it in Rules, maybe you can find it with the search feature.

On the first page, I have posted the mathematic solution to derive the average without hopeless characters. Figuring them in increases the average to about 30 IIRC.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Tatsukun]

I agree that it looks good for light armor if you only look at AC and assume you have an 22 Dex.

S let’s assume that for some reason, a PC has once stat of 22 and one of 16. Remember that the Mithral full plate guy can put the 16 in Dex and the 22 in Str.

The light armor guy has to put the 22 in Dex and the 16 in Str.

So really the full plate guy has one more point of AC, +3 to hit, +3 Damage (or +4 for two-handers), and extra carrying capacity.

Also, there is nothing saying the heavy armor guy has to put his 22 in Str, a cleric might be better served with a 22 Wis, or a Paladin with a 22 Cha for example.

So, for the bonuses from having a 22 in any stat of your choice, the heavy armor guy pays with 10' less movement (get some winged boots, no problem) and the inability to quickly don / doff his armor (I think there's an enchantment for that somewhere in the +1 range). Big deal, I'll take the heavy armor please.

Now, of course, if your question is only about the scout, I can’t help you mush. I haven’t read the scout class, so I don’t know if there’s another stat they’d like to have a 22 in.

-Tatsu