Is Hide Spell overpowered?

[Xarlen]

Thank you, Rogue. I stand corrected about Queen of Lies being Scarred Lands.

 

[James McMurray]

RogueJK, do those dark elves actually wear Madonna outfits?

 

[Xarlen]

If it's a joke, then it seems to be a repeating one.

Look at page 20 of R&R. See the female summoner wearing next to nothing? Look at the rest of the pictures of female casters.

I realize that almost all fantasy RPG stuff has women in skimpy stuff, but the Scarred Lands suggests that spellcasting produces mass amounts of heat, thus spellcasters have to wear little.

Look at the pictures of male spellcasters. How dressed are they? They're almost fully dressed.

Hmmm... Suspicious.

Edit: added to my second thought.

 

[RogueJK]

RogueJK, do those dark elves actually wear Madonna outfits?

As far as I can tell, no. It doesn't mention anything along those lines in the text, and the artwork doesn't show any. In fact, the dark elf women in the artwork don't appear to be wearing brassieres at all, pointy or otherwise.

So no Madonna-wannabes. Just the typical scantily-clad elf women.

 

[James McMurray]

So perhaps it was both joke and excuse for scantily clad chick in pictures. I personally am kind of glad they didn't draw the men in speedos, but it certainly leaves the female gamers without some beefcake to look at.

 

[jgbrowning]

From Relics and Rituals:

Hide Spell
No pre-reqs.

Increases spell slot level by 2.

When used on an evocation spell, the spell produces no audible or visible effects. The actual effects of the spell are not hidden. Use of this feat eliminates any Reflex save versus the spell, unless the victim has uncanny dodge.

So, as a fifth level spell, you can have a fireball doing an automatic 10d6 with no save. Plus plenty of other similar uses. Any opinions?

Hell yes, bubba!

First of all, this feat is equal to the silent spell feat. Ok.. silent spell ads +1 to level. So what we're really trying to figure out is not allowing a reflex save equal to ONLY an additional +1 to level?
I don't think so and here's why.

Our 1st example is a 9th level caster, who rolls 30hp damage for a fireball (almost completely average) (Note... save % below are based upon the average reflex saves of the 10th level iconic chars in enimies and allies. barbs and rogues are excluded in both, as are monks.. we'll talk about them later)

Empower is +2, what that does is turns a 30hp fireball into a 45hp fireball. Assuming a victim would save 45% of the time the average damage per Empowered fireball in our example would be 35.

A Hide spell 30hp fireball does 30hp of damage on average and is silent to boot. So, hide spell does 5 less damge and is silent.

Our 2nd example is a 11th level caster, who rolls 35hp damage (fireball maxes at 10d6).

Maximize is +3, and turns the spell into 60hp damage. Assuming a victim saves only 35% of the time the average damage for a Maximized spell is 50.

A Hide spell would do 35hp damage and be silent. 15hp less than a maximized, so its not quite as damaging as a Maximized spell, but it is silent and invisible and takes up a spell slot one level lower than the maximized spell.

Lets mix our examples now. An 11th level caster casts a Silent, Empowered fireball (+3 to spell level, and REQUIRES TWO FEATS)and does 52.5 damage. Assuming a victim saves only 35% of the time the average damage is now 43.

11th level caster Hiding a fireball would do 35hp on average, which is 8hp less, but only requires ONE feat and takes up a spell slot ONE LEVEL lower.

Don't forget the humble Monk, as someone mentioned before. Scorned because she doesn't have uncanny dodge so she doesn't get to use her evasion and improved evasion. That monk's reflex save significanly lowers the average damage of the spells that allow her to make a save vers Hide spell.


But my main issue with this feat is other evocation spells than just fireball.
--Otiluke's Resilient Sphere. Now, with Hide feat, has no save and is a guarenteed 6th level negate a large or smaller creature spell.
--Blade Barrier, a reflex NEGATES spell. Invisible blade barriers anyone? Blade Barriers doing guaranteed damage and no one can see them.
--Earthquake is now a flat 25% chance to die spell. And its invisible and has around 105ft radius. It is now a huge area effect death spell. No save, no Hp requirement, nada....
--Flaming Sphere, another reflex NEGATES spell.
--Holy Smite is now a guaranteed 1 round blind spell +damage in a 20ft radius burst vrs evil and neutral creatures.
--Orders Wrath now a guaranteed 1 round daze +damage spell vrs chaotic and neutral.
--Sound burst now a guaranteed 1 round stunned spell.
--Sunbeam is now a guaranteed blind spell for at least 17rounds and does damage and does a guaranteed kill vrs undead that are destroyed by light.
--Amost ditto on Sunburst
--Wall of ice now a guaranteed capture the enemy spell.

I think everyone can see it should be at least a +3 to caster level.

joe b.

ps. i dont like S&S... they have some balance problems in many of their stuff.

 

[Xarlen]

Sound burst is a Will save.

 

[Xarlen]

Also, one stands to reason that, if the effect that a spell creates is to blind someone with a bright light... and you make that bright light invisible, aren't you kinda disarming the whole point of the spell?

For example, wouldn't blind creatures and characters be sorta immune to it?

 

[SableWyvern]

Also, one stands to reason that, if the effect that a spell creates is to blind someone with a bright light... and you make that bright light invisible, aren't you kinda disarming the whole point of the spell?

Not necessarily. Using a real-world equivalent, UV light can blind. Quite possibly other kinds of EM radiation outside the visual spectrum can do the same thing. Given that this is magic, and thus potentially much more versatile than real-world science, I don't see any intrinsic reason why sunbeam (et al) could not be made invisible. OTOH, it would still be reasonable to adjudicate that it cannot be.

With jgbrowning's post, I'm almost decided on dissallowing the feat.

 

[James McMurray]

Just a little nitpick, silent spell and Hide spell are far from equivelent. The act of casting a hidden spell can still be heard, as it still requires verbal components. The sounds created from a silent spell can still be heard, as that feat only removes the audible section of spellcasting. If you want to truly remain hard to locate with spellcasting, you would have to use a silent hidden spell.

--Otiluke's Resilient Sphere. Now, with Hide feat, has no save and is a guarenteed 6th level negate a large or smaller creature spell.

Unless that creature has some form of teleportation, which many creatures fought at that level do. Also, you can't harm the creature in the sphere, so all you've done is use a 6th level slot to disable him temporarily. Compared to Hold Monster (allows a save, but you get to kill the guy if he fails) or Bigby's forceful hand (holds people back and is breakable, but you still get to attack them) it seems balanced to me.

--Blade Barrier, a reflex NEGATES spell. Invisible blade barriers anyone? Blade Barriers doing guaranteed damage and no one can see them.

And its an 8th level spell. The fact taht it is invisible does not stop you from leaving it. Simply move your full speed in any one direction and likely you will break free. also, being invisible, your allies cannot see it, so must be careful not to blunder into it.

Earthquake is now a flat 25% chance to die spell. And its invisible and has around 105ft radius. It is now a huge area effect death spell. No save, no Hp requirement, nada....

Not too ahsbby for a 10th level spell slot. (11th for Druids).

Flaming Sphere, another reflex NEGATES spell.

and if you don't have better things to do with your 4th level spell slots than deal 2d4 damage per round, you might want to learn some better spells.

--Holy Smite is now a guaranteed 1 round blind spell +damage in a 20ft radius burst vrs evil and neutral creatures.

For a 6th level spell slot. Other 6th level spells include Harm (more powerful than a hidden holy smite) and Geas / Quest (more powerful than holy smite).Neither of those allow saves.

--Orders Wrath now a guaranteed 1 round daze +damage spell vrs chaotic and neutral.

See holy smite above

--Sound burst now a guaranteed 1 round stunned spell.

Will save

--Sunbeam is now a guaranteed blind spell for at least 17rounds and does damage and does a guaranteed kill vrs undead that are destroyed by light.

That slot could also be filled with Prismatic Sphere (Sun Domain) or Shapechange (Druid) or Elemental Swarm (druid). Seems balanced to me.

--Amost ditto on Sunburst

Not too shaby for a 10th level spell

--Wall of ice now a guaranteed capture the enemy spell.

A 6th level spell that removes your foe from combat for 1-2 rounds? Go for it. It is extremely easy to hack through. Also, if your foe is taller than 3' + 1' per level, its too big to capture.