Is Hide Spell overpowered?

[Shard O'Glase]

Just to add to James McMurray's post, unsaveable otilicks sphere. By the rules a wall of force used to trap is unsaveable and only 5th level, so not a big deal.

Slightly OT but blade barrier for me is a bad example beacuse it breaks the rules and is an 8th level spell in my game. And I think maybe it should be 9th. It is an area of effect spell that does up to 20d6, at 6th level that beats the arcane damage caps. Sure reflex negates, but it also provides cover, and lasts for multile rounds which much more than makes up for the save negates.

 

[James McMurray]

True, I had missed the comparison to Wall of Force. Then again, in my game a Wall of Force used to capture allows a reflex save to negate, because I think its too good a spell otherwise. This is mainly because my DMPC sorcerer has it, and I don't want him to outshine the other characters in power by being able to easily remove foes from battle for hours at a time.

 

[jgbrowning]

Hide feat

"Just a little nitpick, silent spell and Hide spell are far from equivelent. The act of casting a hidden spell can still be heard, as it still requires verbal components. The sounds created from a silent spell can still be heard, as that feat only removes the audible section of spellcasting. If you want to truly remain hard to locate with spellcasting, you would have to use a silent hidden spell."

My bad, reread the feat and thats true.... components are still there, not silenced. Course now you can easily spellcraft the caster and you'll know what invisible effect is occuring, so i'm even more confused about taking away a reflex save... oh well.

quote:
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--Otiluke's Resilient Sphere. Now, with Hide feat, has no save and is a guarenteed 6th level negate a large or smaller creature spell.
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"Unless that creature has some form of teleportation, which many creatures fought at that level do. Also, you can't harm the creature in the sphere, so all you've done is use a 6th level slot to disable him temporarily. Compared to Hold Monster (allows a save, but you get to kill the guy if he fails) or Bigby's forceful hand (holds people back and is breakable, but you still get to attack them) it seems balanced to me."

the spell says nothing can pass through the sphere, inside or out so teleport would work as sphere is a force spell, but ethereal jaunt etc wouldn't as force spells are coexistant on the ethereal plane.

would you think a hold monster spell cast with a +2metamagic feat that prevents will saves equal to a 7th level spell? You shouldn't compare how powerful a metamagiced spell is with other spells at a certain level, you should focus more on how it compares with other metamagic feats.


quote:
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--Blade Barrier, a reflex NEGATES spell. Invisible blade barriers anyone? Blade Barriers doing guaranteed damage and no one can see them.
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"And its an 8th level spell. The fact taht it is invisible does not stop you from leaving it. Simply move your full speed in any one direction and likely you will break free. also, being invisible, your allies cannot see it, so must be careful not to blunder into it."

No, its a 6th level metamagiced spell, its cast as an 8th level spell, and is slotted as an 8th level spell, but it is still a 6th level spell.

Why is Blade Barrier a 6th level spell to begin with? it only does 1d6damage per caster level, has a full round casting time, and has a save that NEGATES. hell sounds less than a 3rd level fireball to me... I am of course being sarcastic here, it lasts 10 minutes per level. you throw this puppy down on a battlefield and watch it work. You hide behind it and get 1/2 cover and all that it advantages to a person. you make blade barrier no save with hide feat and suddenly a semi-intelligent caster will find all sorts of ways to make it impossible to bypass.

quote:
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Earthquake is now a flat 25% chance to die spell. And its invisible and has around 105ft radius. It is now a huge area effect death spell. No save, no Hp requirement, nada....
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"Not too ahsbby for a 10th level spell slot. (11th for Druids)."

yeah, but much better than any other metamagiced death effect spell in the game...... it effects everyone in a 105ft radius with a flat 25% chance to die. That is very very very overpowered. look at all of the death spells, they have hp limits or HD limits or saves.
Unless you burrow or fly your 25% dead. No spell resistance either.


quote:
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Flaming Sphere, another reflex NEGATES spell.
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"and if you don't have better things to do with your 4th level spell slots than deal 2d4 damage per round, you might want to learn some better spells."

the point of flaming sphere is not how much damage it does, (2d6 actually) is that is is a controlable source of fire for medium range and for 1/round a level. An invisible sphere has all sorts of potential.

quote:
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--Holy Smite is now a guaranteed 1 round blind spell +damage in a 20ft radius burst vrs evil and neutral creatures.
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"For a 6th level spell slot. Other 6th level spells include Harm (more powerful than a hidden holy smite) and Geas / Quest (more powerful than holy smite).Neither of those allow saves."

Everyone knows Harm is broken so i'll not count that one. Geas/Quest is broken in my book to, but it still only effects 1 person. we're dealing with a 20radius burst, thats a circle 40ft in diameter. big, big.....

quote:
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--Orders Wrath now a guaranteed 1 round daze +damage spell vrs chaotic and neutral.
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"See holy smite above"

indeed, i as well. see above

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--Sound burst now a guaranteed 1 round stunned spell.
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"Will save"

I made a mistake. was tired oh well....

quote:
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--Sunbeam is now a guaranteed blind spell for at least 17rounds and does damage and does a guaranteed kill vrs undead that are destroyed by light.
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"That slot could also be filled with Prismatic Sphere (Sun Domain) or Shapechange (Druid) or Elemental Swarm (druid). Seems balanced to me."

whoa nelly!

1st i dont think comparing metamagiced spells to spell of the new level is the best way of determining +caster level difficulty. But to take your examples.....

Pris Sphere, only blinds those within 20ft of the caster and only for those less than 8HD although the length of blindness is longer.
The effects of the Sphere only happen if you go through the sphere and the sphere doesnt move and you cant cast spells out of the sphere...

Shapechange is nice, one of the best spells in the game, but you cant get supernatural or spell like abilities. Basically this is a pump your form up and bash the bad guys spell. Or it is a be tricky with your forms spell. This cannot directly hurt another like a sunbeam. And it has a 1500gp focus, (subject to a shatter spell, which i like)

Elemental swarm. take 10 minutes to cast. that all i have to say.
its not a combat spell, its a prepare for combat spell... big difference.

Dont forget the Sunbeam caster would have 5 sunbeams to cast, one per round.


quote:
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--Wall of ice now a guaranteed capture the enemy spell.
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"A 6th level spell that removes your foe from combat for 1-2 rounds? Go for it. It is extremely easy to hack through. Also, if your foe is taller than 3' + 1' per level, its too big to capture."

14 feet is pretty big, and it removes things from combat. Always nice.


My main point when i see any metamagic feat is consider what it does to all combat dynamics. I also immediatly think of what a villian could do to a party. To use this feat and show you why i dont allow it in my game is the following examples.

party of 4, fighter mage thief cleric.. all levels 12.

meets 1mage 11th, improved invisibility on + 1 Hill giant with ring of major elemental resistance (fire) (EL 12)

round 1, mage casts otilikes resiliant sphere with hide metamagic feat on the cleric. Now cleric cant heal. If someone was within 5ft of the cleric, they are in the sphere as well.

round 2. Hill giant bashes the fighter, mage does a maximized fireball (his last 6th spell, he's an invoker) for 60hp damage. Don't forget death by massive damage rules.

round 3. Giant bashes fighter, mage casts regular fireball. Now party mage has taken significant damage -whatever resistances he may have.

probably the party will either die, or run away leaving the cleric.

the mage then rolls the sphere into a lava pit, or drops the sphere into a pit trap and drop a large stone block on the sphere.. wait for sphere spell to end, dead cleric.

I know that's a simplified combat, but i think it shows how a spell that does no damage and that has no save can kill a party. If he would have memorized another otilukes, suddenly the party is down to two people... mage and rogue only.

joseph browning

 

[Plane Sailing]

Actually comparing metamagiced spells to genuine spells of the equivalent level is the IDEAL way of adjudicating whether it is reasonable or not!

The ultimate question of whether a metamagic feat is too good is "would a spell of level x with this metamagic be obviously superior to (or obviously inferior to) a normal spell of level y"

The choice of a maximised fireball against any other level 6 spell (since both take a 6th level slot) is a tough one. Would you rather have the 60 points fire damage in a 20ft r burst, or a circle of death spell which can snuff out 11d4 HD of creatures of up to 9hd? or Disintegrate? or Acid Fog? or Chain Lightning? or Antimagic shell? If you are an 11th wizard and only have the one spell slot to play with it is a tough choice, which is as it should be.

Trying to compare it with other metamagic feats is too vague. Is an empowered fireball the equivalent of a stilled, silent fireball? Or a doubly extended fireball? Any of these are excellent in some circumstances and a waste of spell slots in others

Cheers

 

[Xarlen]

Of course that's how you compare.

If you look at some metamagic feats, then yes, they're more powerful in some senses then the spells that are at the same access, at certain levels. Let us take for example, an Empowered Lightning Bolt.

A 10th level caster may cast 2 5th level spells. An empowered Lightning bolt, and a Cone of Cold.

At this point, both spells are 10d6. Both are 5th level. However, while the Cone of Cold is only doing 10d6 points of damage, the empowered Lightning bolt is doing 10d6+5d6. So, really, it's like casting a CoC at level 15; you get extra dice. Sure, the Cone of Cold has a better range, but you can turn that lightning bolt into a 10' wide line. 15d6 damage vs. 10d6, at the same level. Is that balanced?

Let us use another example. An Empoweredx2 Fireball, and a Delayed Blast Fireball. Both 7th level. A 13th level caster can cast one 7th level spell, which both of these are. He can either do 13d6 points of damage with the DBF, OR, he can do 10d6+5d6+5d6, a total of 20d6 points of damage with the twice empowered Fireball.

The only balancing factor here, is that the meta'd spell is treated as a 3rd level for the purposes of DCs.

 

[James McMurray]

would you think a hold monster spell cast with a +2metamagic feat that prevents will saves equal to a 7th level spell?

Yes I would, but that's immaterial to the matter at hand, as such a feat does not exist.

You shouldn't compare how powerful a metamagiced spell is with other spells at a certain level, you should focus more on how it compares with other metamagic feats.

Actually you should do both. If a metamagicked spell is patently weaker or more powerful than a non metamagicked feat that requires the same level slot, there is something wrong with the feat itself. (or in some instances perhaps the base spell is broken).

No, its a 6th level metamagiced spell, its cast as an 8th level spell, and is slotted as an 8th level spell, but it is still a 6th level spell.

Which, by virueu of it requiring an 8th level spell slot, has been deemed equivilent in power to an 8th level spell.

Why is Blade Barrier a 6th level spell to begin with? it only does 1d6damage per caster level, has a full round casting time, and has a save that NEGATES.

Becuase it shatters both the divine and arcane damage caps and has a duration.

"Not too ahsbby for a 10th level spell slot. (11th for Druids)."

yeah, but much better than any other metamagiced death effect spell in the game...... it effects everyone in a 105ft radius with a flat 25% chance to die. That is very very very overpowered. look at all of the death spells, they have hp limits or HD limits or saves.
Unless you burrow or fly your 25% dead. No spell resistance either.

Um, yeah, but its still a 10th-11th level spell. Out of reach for all but epic casters, who are expected to do massive things. Plus, how many creatures whose CR is over 20 do not fly?

the point of flaming sphere is not how much damage it does, (2d6 actually) is that is is a controlable source of fire for medium range and for 1/round a level. An invisible sphere has all sorts of potential.

As do many other 4th level spells, or metamagicked spells which require 4th level slots. If all you want to do is set things on fire, you could use a 1st level burning hands (I believe). An invisible ball of fire for 1 round per level could be interesting, but worth a 5th level slot? I don't think so.

Everyone knows Harm is broken so i'll not count that one. Geas/Quest is broken in my book to, but it still only effects 1 person. we're dealing with a 20radius burst, thats a circle 40ft in diameter. big, big.....

Yes, those spells are broken. Lets look at other 6th level spells: Blade Barrier, certainly more useful in controlling a battlefield than one round's worth of daze or blindness. Antilife shell: will keep you safer from that melee foe tan one round of blindness. Also, although the area of effect is large, the damage caps out at an average of 22 points. A paltry amount against most foes for an 11th level caster.

Sunbeam
I was not looking for equivelent effects (as there aren't any for Sun domain and druid 9th level slots), but rather equivelent power levels. Shapechanging into a Tarrasque to gain regeneration 40 could easily be viewed as the same power level as a hidden sunbeam. Prismatic sphere can blind, but also protects the crap out of you, especially if you are hasted and can leave the sphere, cast a spell, and return tot he sphere all in one round.

14 feet is pretty big, and it removes things from combat. Always nice.

14 feet is pathetic if you'r e fighting giants or dragons. Removing things from combat is nice, but it will only keep them out for 1-2 rounds at most. That sounds equivelent to a 6th level spell to me, considering Maze (8th level) does the same thing for much longer in most cases.

party of 4, fighter mage thief cleric.. all levels 12.

meets 1mage 11th, improved invisibility on + 1 Hill giant with ring of major elemental resistance (fire) (EL 12)

round 1, mage casts otilikes resiliant sphere with hide metamagic feat on the cleric. Now cleric cant heal. If someone was within 5ft of the cleric, they are in the sphere as well.

round 2. Hill giant bashes the fighter, mage does a maximized fireball (his last 6th spell, he's an invoker) for 60hp damage. Don't forget death by massive damage rules.

round 3. Giant bashes fighter, mage casts regular fireball. Now party mage has taken significant damage -whatever resistances he may have.

probably the party will either die, or run away leaving the cleric.

the mage then rolls the sphere into a lava pit, or drops the sphere into a pit trap and drop a large stone block on the sphere.. wait for sphere spell to end, dead cleric.

You seem to be dicounting the party's actions during this time. Why didn't the mage or the cleric dispel or disintigrate the resilient sphere on round two? Why hasn't the wizard cast see invisible and blasted the enemy wizard? Why didn't the fighter get to attack the giant, or fight defensively? What is the rogue doing during all this?

For massive damage, the fighter has a +8 save bonus minimum. Most likely it will be higher. He has a chance to save against the fireball (granted its slim). He has amuch better chance to save against the massive damage. If he does, then he continues wailing on the giant, who just took 30 points of damage from the fireball himself. The rogue also moves up (with his improved evasion and massive reflex save letting him ignore the fireball) and flanks the giant.

I know that's a simplified combat, but i think it shows how a spell that does no damage and that has no save can kill a party. If he would have memorized another otilukes, suddenly the party is down to two people... mage and rogue only.

It is more than simplified, it is incredibly and unfairly biased in favor of your argument. By ignoring the party's actions you have doomed them to die.

 

[jgbrowning]

hide spell

I know it was a simplified combat, but its only supposed to take what 1/5 or1/4 of the parties resources.

Anywho.. to avoid another long post....

wall of force doesn't say you can capture people within it.... that would be forcecage which is a7th level spell vrs a 5th. wall of ice does say you can capture people. probably a hole in rules. I've never let it capture people, cause they have another spell to do that.

the hidden resilient sphere will eventually get you... two mages, both casting it per round will eventually kill a party. Even a twentieth level party. Certain party members can counter it, spell casters using dispell magic.. etc., but you give the bad guys scrolls with the hidden resilient sphere on it and the party will fall. The 4 person party only has two spell users and every round they'd be sphered while the enemy mages henchmen fight the rogue and the fighter. All the mages have to do is stay out of reach of the fighter and rogue.. not that difficult really.

I just come at feats from the other side. I use them against the party. If they dont like it, i take it out and they cant use it either. I think Hide falls into that area.

personally i like the maxed empowered magic missle. 37points of damage, no save 6th level, always hits.

As to determining metamagic spells +caster level.... i think a stilled spell is worth more than any spell spell one level higher. Suddenly you can cast in full armor. Its like being a mage two levels lower. The best one that people dont think about is that you can scribe feats into scrolls... ie. stilled spells....

anyway i'd make Hide +3 if you'll allow it. But im a hardass and dont allow anything in thats not in the PHB or that i make up. Hell, i even change the PHB.

All the metamagic feats in the PHB effect the casters ability to work with magic, they do not change the recipients abilty to resist magic, which is what Hide feat does. Spell focus feat ads a +2 to DC for one particular school, but it does not change the parameters of the spell like Hide does. Heighten increases the diffiuculty as if the spell was a higher level, but does not change the way the spell works.

That's the reason Hide feat is bogus. It is the only metamagic feat that negates the RECPIENTS abilities, not just changing the caster's abilities.

As to the shapechange spell.. you can become anything you are familiar with. that "you" there means the caster not the player. How many players are familar with the tarrasque or unique dragons. I define familiar as something you've had significant interaction with. You've fought it a few time, its your friend, etc.. not something youve heard about or read about. I (joseph browning) know about wolves. I am not familar with them. I am familar with cows and monkeys and dogs and cat... etc... (i've been to india for the monkeys)

joe b.

ps. that hidden earthquake would get the tarrasque.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

Re: hide spell

wall of force doesn't say you can capture people within it.... that would be forcecage which is a7th level spell vrs a 5th. wall of ice does say you can capture people. probably a hole in rules. I've never let it capture people, cause they have another spell to do that.

.

neither do I, but the sage disagrees with us, and maybe even the faq I'll have to check again when I get a chance.

 

[Happiest_Sadist]

Don't forget this also is great with improved invisibility. Consider this scary secnario. Improved invis wizard casts a fireball at you. You can trace the fireball back and take a guess at his square. Not so with this spell.

Also this is great for a smackdown. 20th lvl sorc lobs 5 delayed blast fireballs around. You can't see them sitting there untill they all go off at the same instant with no save. Is 100d6 no save powerful enough for you?

 

[SableWyvern]

Re: Re: hide spell

neither do I, but the sage disagrees with us, and maybe even the faq I'll have to check again when I get a chance.

I'm looking for a sensible answer.

Please don't bring the Sage into this.