Is high randomness good for an RPG?

[Celebrim]

this last thing is I think what randomness really adds to the game: we all tend toward our preferences and can end up in ruts; randomness can pull us out of those ruts and make us reconsider those preferences in ways we never would have considered and improve play.

For me, the hardest thing about improvisation is coming up with a starting point. Long tables of things like in the back of the 1st edition DMG or in the AEG Toolbox give you a springboard to launch from. If that was all randomness was good for, it would be enough.

But I think that the main reason for using dice is to have outcomes that don't make sense. I've played Amber (diceless RPG), and the problem I had with it was that the outcomes all made sense. They were all predictable. They were limited by our imaginations and by our biases and honestly, by the system itself.

Real life isn't like that. Real life never happens in a predictable fashion. The sensible expected outcome quite often doesn't happen, and instead you get something unbelievable. That's what dice or for.

I don't know how many times I've been in discussions on EnWorld were someone will offer a proposition like, "When A happens, the result should be B. Never C.", as if the world ran on rails and so every story should to. Almost in every occassion, even though C is some wild off the wall idea that I would have never imagined, I've been able to answer, "But, can we imagine a situation where when A happens, the result is C." And in almost every case, it seemed to me that the story that results from, "A happened, and then C happened" is a more interesting one than the story, "A happened, and then B happened." because the A, then C story involved a twist. And twists are what love about stories. I love it when the story veers off in an unexpected direction, and we discover (to our horror and delight) that everything we thought we understood was wrong.

So, yeah, I probably would never make a wandering encounter table that indicated an encounter with both Frost Giants and Fire Salamanders, but, then again maybe we have a thermally active region in a cold climate - like say Yellowstone in winter or Iceland. And maybe there has been a recent volcanic eruption, which has triggered a flood or a mudslide which has disrupted a Frost Giant community. And so maybe the Frost Giants say, "Garrr... by Ymir's beard, I won't stand for this!", and set out to quiet the volcano by brute force. When they get there though, intent on freezing the mountain cold, a group of salamanders tries to thwart them.

So the PC's come upon a scene of a warband of frost giants locked in mortal combat with an army of salamanders on a steaming mud plain at the base of a smoking volcano. I think that might be a pretty cool encounter.

I might even be able to launch a module from that, because you see, if the PC's don't intervene on behalf of the Frost Giants, there is going to be another eruption - a much bigger one that the PC's may not be able to escape from in time. And probably there is some place in the mountains heart which the PC's must go that Frost Giants can't...

None of this is an attempt to disagree with you really. If anything, I'm trying to say that you are more right than you realize.

 

[Wik]

For me, the hardest thing about improvisation is coming up with a starting point. Long tables of things like in the back of the 1st edition DMG or in the AEG Toolbox give you a springboard to launch from. If that was all randomness was good for, it would be enough.

But I think that the main reason for using dice is to have outcomes that don't make sense. I've played Amber (diceless RPG), and the problem I had with it was that the outcomes all made sense. They were all predictable. They were limited by our imaginations and by our biases and honestly, by the system itself.

Real life isn't like that. Real life never happens in a predictable fashion. The sensible expected outcome quite often doesn't happen, and instead you get something unbelievable. That's what dice or for.

I don't know how many times I've been in discussions on EnWorld were someone will offer a proposition like, "When A happens, the result should be B. Never C.", as if the world ran on rails and so every story should to. Almost in every occassion, even though C is some wild off the wall idea that I would have never imagined, I've been able to answer, "But, can we imagine a situation where when A happens, the result is C." And in almost every case, it seemed to me that the story that results from, "A happened, and then C happened" is a more interesting one than the story, "A happened, and then B happened." because the A, then C story involved a twist. And twists are what love about stories. I love it when the story veers off in an unexpected direction, and we discover (to our horror and delight) that everything we thought we understood was wrong.

So, yeah, I probably would never make a wandering encounter table that indicated an encounter with both Frost Giants and Fire Salamanders, but, then again maybe we have a thermally active region in a cold climate - like say Yellowstone in winter or Iceland. And maybe there has been a recent volcanic eruption, which has triggered a flood or a mudslide which has disrupted a Frost Giant community. And so maybe the Frost Giants say, "Garrr... by Ymir's beard, I won't stand for this!", and set out to quiet the volcano by brute force. When they get there though, intent on freezing the mountain cold, a group of salamanders tries to thwart them.

So the PC's come upon a scene of a warband of frost giants locked in mortal combat with an army of salamanders on a steaming mud plain at the base of a smoking volcano. I think that might be a pretty cool encounter.

I might even be able to launch a module from that, because you see, if the PC's don't intervene on behalf of the Frost Giants, there is going to be another eruption - a much bigger one that the PC's may not be able to escape from in time. And probably there is some place in the mountains heart which the PC's must go that Frost Giants can't...

None of this is an attempt to disagree with you really. If anything, I'm trying to say that you are more right than you realize.

And I fully agree with your reasoning. But, I'll argue Reynard's point, here.

He's not saying those things shouldn't happen. What he IS saying that random encounter charts (ie, Wandering Monster charts like we used to roll in the technicolour past) should be internally coherent. If you throw a fire elemental into a desert, there may be a reason it's there... but if it's a random element, odds are it's going to be a brief encounter for the PCs and nothing more. So, even if as a GM you work up this internal reasoning for why the elemental is in the frozen tundra butting heads with frost giants, Polar bears, and a few Canadians who got lost whilst ice fishing, the Players aren't ever going to see it.

And then, one of two things will happen. Either the PCs will say "Wtf, we just killed a fire elemental. That makes no sense" and your setting suffers just a little bit (and it should, because you've just shown your group that you used a generic table to throw in an encounter, and reminded them that they're playing a game)... or, they say "Wtf, this makes no sense... but there must be a reason..." and off they go in search for this fire elemental volcano thing which you haven't developed at all, and your lovely little adventure with all those great game elements that you lovingly created over the long weekend will sit and collect dust.

I've seen it happen. It isn't pretty.

So, if you want encounters that might not make sense, leave them off the random tables. I mean, a little bit of "Wtf" is good on an encounter table ("What is this alligator doing in a forest? There must be some water nearby!"), but if it gets too gonzo, it will actually weaken your setting.

 

[Lanefan]

Voted "other.

Randomness where it reflects reality is a good and desireable thing. Not everybody, for example, is the same...thus their stats shouldn't be, either.

Randomness where it makes sense is a good and desireable thing, e.g. combat swings; and the chance for critical hits and-or fumbles.

Randomness in a one-shot situation of literally casting your fate to the winds (e.g. Deck of Many Things) is good. Use it too often and it becomes bad.

Randomness where it's fun is good e.g. Wand of Wonder, wild magic surges, etc.

But as others have said, there needs to be some sort of coherence behind it all. If you're using a random dungeon generator on the fly to make up the party's adventure as they go along, there's no coherence behind it; no rationale for why these rooms and passages fit together as they do or even why they were built at all.

Lanefan

 

[Philotomy Jurament]

Some good points being made.

I'd draw a distinction between random encounter/wandering monster charts and random monster assortments, though. The distinction being that a random encounter chart is usually created for use in-play, and thus is best designed to pull in encounters that make sense for the area, while a random monster assortment is more of a design-time tool, best used when creating and stocking dungeons and encounter areas. The design-time tool benefits from having some weird or gonzo elements, to push the bounds of your creativity and help generate ideas that can become a fantastic, but not nonsensical, feature of your adventure or setting.

 

[mgehl]

The question reminded me of a Dangerous Journeys game I ran years ago. In that system, after hitting your target, you rolled on a hit location table that multiplied your damage by x1 - x4. Of course x1 was 50-60% of the table, and normal armor values usually removed the first x1 of your damage. Combat didn't feel like it was about your character's skill, and it really didn't matter if you were using a knife or a two-handed sword, because the single random roll over-rode most of that.

 

[Mercule]

Other.

For any single mechanic, say attack for an example, there is a sweet spot. If there is no randomness, then there is no point to playing it out. The 3rd level fighter always hits (or misses) the orc. On the other hand, if the orc has a random AC every round, you lose cohesion in the game. Different systems use different balance points to evoke different moods. D&D works well with a static AC and a random attack. WoD works well with opposed checks based on stats. Both have a reasonable and intuitively predictable (i.e. you may not know 15%, but there's a gut level feel for how difficult something is) chance of success.

On the other hand, certain actions or circumstances in game demand a higher or lower level of randomness. I would not play a (non-joke) game that required me to roll to walk across the room or chew my food. On the other end, I loves me the 1e Deck of Many Things that could kill you or make you a near god with a single draw.

Again, those are both special cases. For the core mechanics of a game, I really think there's a sweet spot that has neither too high nor too low randomness.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

For what it's worth, you really are making it sound like you have an axe to grind, and there's a lot of grinding you need to do. Your replies have really not helped this, to put it lightly.

For instance, instead of a set 10% chance for something, is it better to roll 1d20 to see what the percentage chance is (and then roll the d%)?

I've never even heard of this.

Is it good to have a series of charts where rolling on one determines the next chart to roll on?

Good god yes. I used to be "eh" on this, but I've been shown the light. There's nothing more glorious then playing Catholic Space Nazis, getting a crit, and then being told "You...oh dear. Well then. Your blast not only complete destroys the cultist's head, but the now headless corpse runs around, lighting everything around it on fire." No, seriously. These are the best charts in the universe.

Is it fun to have a system where a result can be from fantastic to terrible (like "character gains a level" to "character dies") -- like drawing from a deck of many things?

Again, good god yes. Dungeon Crawl is a cruel and terrible mistress, yet I always come back...

If rolling randomly (straight, no drops or rerolls) for ability scores and hit points is good, is rolling for starting level even better?

Again, I've never even HEARD of rolling your starting level.

Is a randomly generated dungeon -- random rooms, corridors, monsters, treasure -- more fun than one put together with a plan?

Do I have a computer doing it for me?


I dunno the reason this thread was started, but I'm going to have to side with the "This isn't a stand alone thread. There's something behind this."

 

[Burrito Al Pastor]

Unpredictability can make a game great fun, but they can also make it very, very hard to run.

Save or die effects are the ultimate example of bad randomness in a game. It's not "What will happen next, which could be totally unexpected?"; it's a binary "Do you get to keep playing? Y/N" result.

 

[Bullgrit]

For what it's worth, you really are making it sound like you have an axe to grind, and there's a lot of grinding you need to do. Your replies have really not helped this, to put it lightly.

Well, since I actually do not have an axe to grind (at least not with this subject), I don’t know how you hear that sound.

I dunno the reason this thread was started, but I'm going to have to side with the "This isn't a stand alone thread. There's something behind this."

Can you consider that the reason this thread was started was maybe just to start a discussion, an exchange of ideas, maybe even a debate to form a better understanding of the subject?

In what strange, twisted world are we in that posting a poll and question – a question! not a statement or rant – sounds like grinding an axe? In what weird, odd world are we in that posting a poll and question *must* have some hidden connection or ulterior motive?

Do you presume that every poster on ENWorld has an axe to grind on the subject they post about? Or are you just suspicious of me? Or are you just somehow sensitive on this particular subject?

Thinking about it right now, you know what could be funny: replying to every thread on this forum with some variation of accusing the OP of having some underhanded motive or hidden agenda for making their post.

“So what do you think about the new PHB2 character classes?”

-- “What’s your real reason for bringing up the PHB2?”

Bullgrit

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

For example, I really like "swingy" combat with the potential for critical hits and fumbles, especially if those things come with neat, iterative charts. roll: A crit! :roll: to the head! :roll: right in the eye! :roll: oooh! blinded for life!

2 points of damage!