D&D 4E Is Intelligence 4e's dump stat?
- Thread starter Valdrax
- Start date
arscott
First Post
This is mostly just due to skill list consolidation, IMO.
When you combine skills, Int is usually the one that loses out. Knowledge (x) gets folded into X, and X is usually not an Int-based skill. Combine that with the Int-based thief skills being folded into the Dex-based Thievery and the likely loss of Craft, and the only thing Int modifies is Arcana.
The one thing that would counteract this is if certain wis-based skills became Int based in the new edition. For example, the skill Heal is based on wisdom only because healing is the traditional domain of the cleric, and clerics are wis-based casters. In non d20 games that preserve an int/wis split, non-magical healing is usually tied to the Int skill.
So if Heal, Religion, and maybe even Nature became int-based skills, that would keep Int on the radar. But the fact that Dungeoneering is a wis-based skill doesn't give me much hope.
Edit: Looks like Sadrik beat me to it.
When you combine skills, Int is usually the one that loses out. Knowledge (x) gets folded into X, and X is usually not an Int-based skill. Combine that with the Int-based thief skills being folded into the Dex-based Thievery and the likely loss of Craft, and the only thing Int modifies is Arcana.
The one thing that would counteract this is if certain wis-based skills became Int based in the new edition. For example, the skill Heal is based on wisdom only because healing is the traditional domain of the cleric, and clerics are wis-based casters. In non d20 games that preserve an int/wis split, non-magical healing is usually tied to the Int skill.
So if Heal, Religion, and maybe even Nature became int-based skills, that would keep Int on the radar. But the fact that Dungeoneering is a wis-based skill doesn't give me much hope.
Edit: Looks like Sadrik beat me to it.
Szatany
First Post
We don't really know if Intelligence is a dump stat now. It is entirely possible that there are things based on Int we have no clue about. A couple of possibilities:
- Int influences the number of powers you know. That itself would be enough to make Int a Very important stat for each character.
- Int makes it easier to learn rituals
- Int determines your languages (or makes them easier to learn if they work like rituals, i.e. you can know an unlimited number of them).
- Int doesn't govern any skill (or very few of them) but it can be used with any skill to check character's knowledge about any action associated with that skill (for example, make Climb check with your Int to determine what you know about climbing gear)
- as many previously speculated, Int might allow you to pick some trained skills regardless of what class you have.
- Int governs action points (IMO unlikely)
- Int influences the number of powers you know. That itself would be enough to make Int a Very important stat for each character.
- Int makes it easier to learn rituals
- Int determines your languages (or makes them easier to learn if they work like rituals, i.e. you can know an unlimited number of them).
- Int doesn't govern any skill (or very few of them) but it can be used with any skill to check character's knowledge about any action associated with that skill (for example, make Climb check with your Int to determine what you know about climbing gear)
- as many previously speculated, Int might allow you to pick some trained skills regardless of what class you have.
- Int governs action points (IMO unlikely)
ZombieRoboNinja
First Post
Some possibilities I imagine:
*We (think we) know that Arcana, Religion, and History are skills in the game, even though they're not on the Rogue class skills list. These would all seem likely to be Int-based. My guess is that Int is a secondary stat for warlords, warlocks and clerics, playing into their powers the same way Charisma and Strength play into the rogue's powers... so in other words, Int would be a dump stat for rogues, but not for several other classes.
*Even if Intelligence doesn't directly affect your skills, it may be extensible through feats. For example: "Jack of All Trades (Requires Int 14): You add half your Intelligence bonus (rounded down) to all untrained skill checks."
*This might be an intentional design decision: make each class depended on one primary stat, with a couple stats of secondary importance, and one or two "dump stats." (Wizards would dump Str, Clerics might dump Con, and so on.) As long as the dump stats differ per class, this might lead to more interesting variations in party makeup. (Rather than having a party full of ugly guys, you have one ugly guy, one stupid guy, one feeble guy, etc.)
*We (think we) know that Arcana, Religion, and History are skills in the game, even though they're not on the Rogue class skills list. These would all seem likely to be Int-based. My guess is that Int is a secondary stat for warlords, warlocks and clerics, playing into their powers the same way Charisma and Strength play into the rogue's powers... so in other words, Int would be a dump stat for rogues, but not for several other classes.
*Even if Intelligence doesn't directly affect your skills, it may be extensible through feats. For example: "Jack of All Trades (Requires Int 14): You add half your Intelligence bonus (rounded down) to all untrained skill checks."
*This might be an intentional design decision: make each class depended on one primary stat, with a couple stats of secondary importance, and one or two "dump stats." (Wizards would dump Str, Clerics might dump Con, and so on.) As long as the dump stats differ per class, this might lead to more interesting variations in party makeup. (Rather than having a party full of ugly guys, you have one ugly guy, one stupid guy, one feeble guy, etc.)
Silverfox13
First Post
My assumption
I am only taking a que from Star Wars Saga Edition, but the bonus skills provided by Int are not listed in the class descriptions there either. They are listed under the Intelligence attribute, and they are mentioned under the race human.
It is worthy to note that in the SWSE system players without Int bonuses that choose classes such as Jedi, really feal the pain of lack of skill choices (As you normally need/want perception and Initiative initially).
I would like to reassure people that there are skills that will use intelligence even though the rogue may not possess those skills at character creation. I feel that the wizard and warlock will encompass most of these skills at character creation (i.e. Spellcraft).
My personal opinion is that in ballancing Charisma that Intelligence may have taken a hit, but Int will still be a valuable choice for characters and a must for certain classes.
I am only taking a que from Star Wars Saga Edition, but the bonus skills provided by Int are not listed in the class descriptions there either. They are listed under the Intelligence attribute, and they are mentioned under the race human.
It is worthy to note that in the SWSE system players without Int bonuses that choose classes such as Jedi, really feal the pain of lack of skill choices (As you normally need/want perception and Initiative initially).
I would like to reassure people that there are skills that will use intelligence even though the rogue may not possess those skills at character creation. I feel that the wizard and warlock will encompass most of these skills at character creation (i.e. Spellcraft).
My personal opinion is that in ballancing Charisma that Intelligence may have taken a hit, but Int will still be a valuable choice for characters and a must for certain classes.
Lonely Tylenol
First Post
I expect that every class will depend on three abilities, and the other three will be dump stats of sorts. Look at the rogue. Dex, Str, and Cha are important. Int, Wis, and Con not so much. But Con affects HP, Wis affects Will Defense, and Int affects...something. I expect that that something will be consistently applied across all characters, so that you give something up by dumping Int, but not anything crucial to your class unless it's one of your three key abilities. I'll put my money on it having something to do with skills, but who knows what that might be.
FitzTheRuke
Legend
I never liked Int being important for skill points, as it made it so you had to be intellegent to ever be any good at, say, climbing, or swimming. (As a fighter, if you were dumb you'd never have enough skill points to get any good without being smart!)
Also, charisma as a dump stats for PCs never made any sense (exept maybe when it was all about good looks) because it's unlikely the someone without a force-of-personality to speak of could even get motivated to adventure.
Dumb rogues seem about right to me. I agree that rogues should be CLEVER but why would you relate that to INT? Most clever people I know aren't neccesarily bright when it comes to math & basic learning skills, but are able to make you THINK they're bright with their wit & charm. Sounds like CHA to me!
As long as there are other classes, feats, and powers with INT as an important stat, who cares if there's a few dumb rogues?
Although I'd like a future book to have either a rogue "build" with an INT focus (criminal mastermind) and / or a swashbuckler class that combines aspects of the rogue with some smarter moves.
Fitz
Also, charisma as a dump stats for PCs never made any sense (exept maybe when it was all about good looks) because it's unlikely the someone without a force-of-personality to speak of could even get motivated to adventure.
Dumb rogues seem about right to me. I agree that rogues should be CLEVER but why would you relate that to INT? Most clever people I know aren't neccesarily bright when it comes to math & basic learning skills, but are able to make you THINK they're bright with their wit & charm. Sounds like CHA to me!
As long as there are other classes, feats, and powers with INT as an important stat, who cares if there's a few dumb rogues?
Although I'd like a future book to have either a rogue "build" with an INT focus (criminal mastermind) and / or a swashbuckler class that combines aspects of the rogue with some smarter moves.
Fitz
I think Con will actually be the "no class needs it but its good to have" attribute so it won't be an actual dump stat.
I suspect every class might have two "dump stats" that don't directly tie into their class abilities but do factor into general makeup of all classes such as Wis and its bonus to WILL defense
(there's definitely some Int across the board rule, we're just not seeing it as yet. I'm willing to bet that WOTC would see this if we can)
I suspect every class might have two "dump stats" that don't directly tie into their class abilities but do factor into general makeup of all classes such as Wis and its bonus to WILL defense
(there's definitely some Int across the board rule, we're just not seeing it as yet. I'm willing to bet that WOTC would see this if we can)
Similar Threads
