Is it cheating to start a PC above 1st level?

[Brother MacLaren]

Finding examples from books and movies doesn't really prove anything.

No, the examples do prove something. Rogueattorney was responding to AaronL’s assertion that there was no in-character reason why high-level characters would associate with low-level characters, and his examples prove that this can happen in a fantasy adventure story. Now, whether or not D&D adventures can resemble such stories is a separate issue and one that is also being discussed here. My thought is that a very skilled DM or a very tolerant group of players could probably pull it off, but I didn’t read rogueattorney’s post as addressing that point.

Looking at another issue – the complaint that level 1 characters have no backstory – level 1 doesn’t have to mean “no prior experience.” Clearly, every PC has to have been doing something before the story starts, but since it isn’t part of the game it doesn’t count. I think of it as "the PC XP meter only starts ticking when the first session kicks off." That interpretation requires being a little less literal, but I could wrap my brain around it. Yes, I understand that the RAW imply nothing of the sort, but they do suggest that the fighter has somehow learned to use every weapon and gotten toughened up, while the thief has somehow learned a bunch of skills and how to fight dirty. Or, one could assume that it takes 1000 XP to turn a Commoner 1 into a PC 1, and that the unique feature of the commoner class is that it can be actually converted into a level of another class. Again, nothing in the RAW supports this interpretation, but I play this game to be creative.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The real problem I've seen is that no matter how good a reason you may have for bringing a 1st lvl PC on a higher lvl adventure, it's usually just not fun for the player.

My very first character was a first-level 1E gnome fighter in a party of 7th level characters.

He survived the adventure... right up to the showdown with the BBEG. He made his save vs the fireball... and half damage dropped him to -13

I actually had a lot of fun... but I was 6 at the time. I suspect I wouldn't enjoy it as much now.

-Hyp.

 

[drothgery]

Okay then can you please tell me the average of PCs death you have? The reason I am asking this is I am having a hard time visualizing combat with the varied levels all able to contribute without ending up dead.

In the games I play in even when we play smart it would be tough for a lower level PC to live much less contribute anything to the fight. We have area effect spells going off from both friendly and unfriendly mages, high level fighters who do massive amounts of damage.

The only way I can see this working is to be fighting in areas that give you a lot of room for maneuverability and they must work really well as a team each knowing where to go and what to do and who to engage. It would seem a mistake could be deadly for the lower level PCs.

Exactly. Anything that's a challenge to a 12th level character in combat will be able destroy any third-level character in one round, most likely without using their best attacks.

*ignoring level-adjusted races, characters with far more magic than standard for their level [when no one else is similarly equipped], and the like

 

[JDJarvis]

Okay then can you please tell me the average of PCs death you have? The reason I am asking this is I am having a hard time visualizing combat with the varied levels all able to contribute without ending up dead.

This came up in another thread but there is a better then 66% chance someone will not be able to have a character survive past 5th or 6th level.
Players run a lot, maneuver for position and contribute to the general effort.
Barring bad luck we've had 3 first level "seconds" survive several levels recently, folks seem to be more likelt to get kileld when they try to use characters of 5th level or so that they are unfamiliar with. We had one guy play a 5h level wizard as a replacemnt for a dead higher level character and he was an unholy horror for the rest of the party whiping off spells at all the wrong moments becasue he really wasn't familiar with the subtketies of playign a wizard (like making sure other folks aren't in the area of effect for your spells when you can avoid it); this wizard died during 6th level.

Recently the 11th level fighter went on a vampire hunting trip with the three lowest level members of the party. They defeated the vampires minions and forced the main vampire they were seeking to retreat to his coffin but were themsleves too weakened to hunt out the coffin and finish the vampire before they feared he'd return (they had no idea how long it would take). Levels were lost and everyone almost died but they still prevailed (mostly). the lower level fellows spent a good part of the combat hurling holy water while the high level fighter engaged the vampire with his magical arms. If the low level fellows had gone in without the fighter they'd be dead, if the fighter went in alone he'd be dead.

The only way I can see this working is to be fighting in areas that give you a lot of room for maneuverability and they must work really well as a team each knowing where to go and what to do and who to engage. It would seem a mistake could be deadly for the lower level PCs.

I do feature lots of encounter in ruins and the wilderness but we also have lots of combats in dungeon environments. The fight I mentioned above took place in a very restrictive environment that the players managed to cope with eventually to thier advantage.

I guess I really do have to credit the players i DM for:
They avoid staying clumped together, usually, when they do one of the spell casters in the party ususally remembers to warn everyone to spread out. We had one lady fail to keep in mind the high level mage they were fighing and she was slain by a fireball even though she saved (she was 7th level however), luckily for her the party was able to get her back to life. They see nothing wrong with retreating and not fighting the opponents on the battle ground the opponents choose. They use missle weapons a lot and don't try to press every combat so they are always all within 30' of each other and foes. They try very hard to get the upper hand even before a fight starts.

 

[Scion]

We had one guy play a 5h level wizard as a replacemnt for a dead higher level character and he was an unholy horror for the rest of the party whiping off spells at all the wrong moments becasue he really wasn't familiar with the subtketies of playign a wizard (like making sure other folks aren't in the area of effect for your spells when you can avoid it)

The character just got 3rd level spells anyway, this sort of thing would've happened even if the character had been played since first.

Do you have another example more relevant? Sounds like he had simply never used third level spells before, or was roleplaying his new found power very well, or both.

No, the examples do prove something. Rogueattorney was responding to AaronL’s assertion that there was no in-character reason why high-level characters would associate with low-level characters, and his examples prove that this can happen in a fantasy adventure story. Now, whether or not D&D adventures can resemble such stories is a separate issue and one that is also being discussed here. My thought is that a very skilled DM or a very tolerant group of players could probably pull it off, but I didn’t read rogueattorney’s post as addressing that point.

Now, if you can prove that when translated to d&d that those characters would definately be of lower level then go for it Simply being of a different, and possibly nonmilitaristic, character class is an easy enough explination.

For the case of bilbo it may be that he was a 'higher' level than the other members, but he simply had levels of expert and a bunch of ranks in professions and crafts. Oh, and the hobit prestige class which grants astounding luck.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

Now, if you can prove that when translated to d&d that those characters would definately be of lower level then go for it Simply being of a different, and possibly nonmilitaristic, character class is an easy enough explination.

For the case of bilbo it may be that he was a 'higher' level than the other members, but he simply had levels of expert and a bunch of ranks in professions and crafts. Oh, and the hobit prestige class which grants astounding luck.

I can't prove anything to you in this case, and you know that -- it's a matter of interpretation. As I see it, Aragorn was clearly one of the best there was at what he did, vastly experienced in both travel and combat, and had faced many challenges. None of this woud be true of Merry and Pippin. And Bilbo, as well, was described as having had a pretty dull and easy life up to the beginning of his story. Therefore, if I were making up their stats at the beginning of FOTR, I would put Aragorn about level 16 and Merry and Pippin about level 1. Same for Han Solo (rogue 8) vs. Luke Skywalker (commoner 1) and Princess Leia (aristocrat 5) at the very beginning of Star Wars. You could concoct an explanation of how they are all the same level, but I think that would be stretching a lot.

In my interpretation, level is a function of how outstanding you are in your field AND how many serious heroic-type challenges you've overcome. The nature of the profession sets what level "the best in their field" is. The highest-level blacksmith in the world, who traveled deep into Rockhome to trade for purest mithril and to the top of the Altan Tepe mountains to learn giant smithing techniques, might be level 14. The highest-level fighter, the great warlord who has slain dragons in single combat and conquered half the known world, might be level 20.

 

[cyferwolf]

cheating? no. its a decision of the gm and the players, its really a decision of story and flavor.

Persoanlly i've found it works best as a group decision where verybody starts, you can usually find a compromise that everyone can work with and be unhappy with if nothing.

its how you know you've reached compromise, when nobody's happy but no ones ticked enough to kill.