Is it DnD, or MtG? (General Griping)

Well, my group and I played D&D 3.5 in Eberron this past Friday night, and we had a lot of fun. We used miniatures, AoO, Feats, and everthing! (Heck, we even role-played a little) And there's nothing you can do to stop us! Bwahahaha!

:]
 

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Ridley's Cohort said:
A perfectly reasonable attitude. But I do not see how 3e accomplishes this less well than any previous editions. In fact, I would think the ability to customize the PC by feats would be a huge plus to you.

All I am saying is that the assertion that the potency of 3e PCs are more determined by their magic items than previous editions seems completely wrong based on my personal experience.

Playing a low or no magic campaign with 3e seems like it could be very enjoyable to me. I would not want to play that kind of campaign with 1e/2e rules; the characters would be too mechanically similar for my tastes and it would require extra work on my part to maintain character.

There is a big difference in the type of magic items that we have now. A majority of 3e items tend to enhance the abilities and attributes of the characters, such as cloak of protection, bracers of strength etc.

These items are very prevalent and a character cannot exist without them in 3e. Can you imagine a fighter without a strength item at 15th level?

The main problem I see are the scaling items. Belt of Giant Strength just gave you a +2 back in the day. Now it goes up to a +6, so on and so forth. The stats and modifiers are FAR more important than ever before and things that allow bonus' are thus FAR more important.

Thus, there is a far greater reliance on magic items than in previous editions. Not only do characters need them to compete with those spell-like beasties, but they are better integrated.

Also, magic items in 3e lack any and all flavor. They are just pluses with fancy names.
 

BelenUmeria said:
The main problem I see are the scaling items. Belt of Giant Strength just gave you a +2 back in the day.

Clearly this must be a new definition of "day" that is unrelated to simplistic concepts of linear time.

Also, magic items in 3e lack any and all flavor. They are just pluses with fancy names.

AKA "not enough syllables".
 

Umbran said:
You say it is not necessarily the case. I say it flat out isn't the case for D&D. You say a game with many options might have the effect, I say that it wouldn't. Simply maintaining my stance that the game doesn't really have anything to do with it. The game doesn't cause people to do anything. They do it because they like to do it.

I disagree here. I had an opportunity to watch my old 2e group in action a few weeks ago. I was a GM/player with that group for 3 years, before I moved away for a bit.

The difference between that group playing 2e and that group playing 3e was night and day. As 2e players, they were all focused on characterization and the game was far more cinematic.

As 3e players, a huge majority of the game I watched was mechanics and rolling. That was the focus.

So in that case, a group that was very into character and story switched completely. And I can only see a difference in edition here.
 

BelenUmeria said:
There is a big difference in the type of magic items that we have now. A majority of 3e items tend to enhance the abilities and attributes of the characters, such as cloak of protection, bracers of strength etc.
As did most of the items in 2e, such as the cloak of protection, the ring of protection, the gauntlets of ogre power, the girdles of giant strength, the gloves of dexterity, etc.


These items are very prevalent and a character cannot exist without them in 3e. Can you imagine a fighter without a strength item at 15th level?
Yes, I can. I've read enough threads about low magic, low wealth level campaigns to have an idea of what they are like. All 3e did was provide a wealth baseline for characters of each level so that DMs can use the rule "characters of level x with wealth level x should be able to take on a challenge of CR x" when designing encounters. You can make the wealth levels higher or lower if you want, but if so, the guideline no longer applies and it's up to the DM to judge the difficulty of the encounter himself. In other words, you're back to the situation we had in 2e.


The main problem I see are the scaling items. Belt of Giant Strength just gave you a +2 back in the day. Now it goes up to a +6, so on and so forth. The stats and modifiers are FAR more important than ever before and things that allow bonus' are thus FAR more important.
If I remember correctly, Gauntlets of Ogre Power in 2e set your Strength to 18/00. Girdles of Giant Strength set your strength from 19 to 24 depending on whether it was a Girdle of Hill, Stone, Frost, Fire, Cloud or Storm Giant Strength. Possibly the reason why the increase in Strength seemed less was because nobody played a fighter with less than 18/xx Strength anyway.


Thus, there is a far greater reliance on magic items than in previous editions. Not only do characters need them to compete with those spell-like beasties, but they are better integrated.
I don't see that reliance on magic items has changed very much from 2e to 3e. 2e characters also had to worry about basilisks and bodaks and hell hounds and dragons and beholders and mind flayers and golems. They still needed their rings of fire resistance and cloaks of protection and magic weapons and armor.


Also, magic items in 3e lack any and all flavor. They are just pluses with fancy names.
Yes, but they are plusses that are more clearly defined and coherent and work together more sensibly. While magic items with odd restrictions and interactions may be more "interesting" (why does the AC bonus from a cloak of protection work with nonmagical leather but not any other type of armor?) I'd rather spend less time worrying about magical quirks and concentrate on what I consider to be the important bits: the heros, the plot and the world.
 

Points of disagreement, based on the half-dozen D&D groups I played in from 1987 to 1994:

BelenUmeria said:
These items are very prevalent and a character cannot exist without them in 3e. Can you imagine a fighter without a strength item at 15th level?

Just like I can't imagine a 1st edition AD&D fighter without at LEAST a Girdle of Hill Giant Strength. In those days, it was the dream of every fighter to own one of two things: A Rod of Lordly Might, and a Girdle of Storm Giant strength. The impossible dream (one I only saw once) was the Hammer of Thunderbolts, the Gauntlets of Ogre Power, and the Girdle of Storm Giant strength, together. It always tickled me to think of someone rolling a 1d4 (base warhammer die) + 23 for damage - why roll the die at all? :D

The main problem I see are the scaling items. Belt of Giant Strength just gave you a +2 back in the day. Now it goes up to a +6, so on and so forth. The stats and modifiers are FAR more important than ever before and things that allow bonus' are thus FAR more important.

Gridle of Giant Strength aside (even in Basic D&D it gave you "to hit" of a hill giant"), back in the old days, stats were of PRIMARY importance in the D&D groups I played in. It was why we NEVER rolled 3d6 for stats in AD&D; everyone always had their crazy little stat-rolling method, from 5d6, drop lowest two dice, to a pool of 16d6, start with 8's, add the dice to your scores, but you can't go above 18. I even used 1d10+8 because I got tired of all the pools of dice rolling in the games. No fighter in 1E would even THINK of going around with a 14 STR or a 12 CON in my old games because the monsters he faced would cream his party silly.

Thus, there is a far greater reliance on magic items than in previous editions. Not only do characters need them to compete with those spell-like beasties, but they are better integrated.

Also, magic items in 3e lack any and all flavor. They are just pluses with fancy names.

I have to disagree based on my experience, because if one compares a 2nd edition 15th level character with no magic whatsoever to a 2nd edition 15th level character with appropriate amount of magic for someone who'd been adventuring that long, the comparison is like night and day. One vastly outstrips the other, same as it does now - only now, the outstripping would be slightly less because of the added magical boosts in 3E that the cleric and wizard are supplying that weren't present back then.
 

BelenUmeria said:
The difference between that group playing 2e and that group playing 3e was night and day. As 2e players, they were all focused on characterization and the game was far more cinematic.

As 3e players, a huge majority of the game I watched was mechanics and rolling. That was the focus.

Which is *funny*, because *my* group just played an Eberron campaign setting game on Saturday night.

The group's comprised of several players who've played just about every game system under the sun, some who've played quite a few but can't remember the old mechanics to save their lives, and one (possibly two) who are brand new to roleplaying in general.

The session - which ran from about 5pm till 10pm - started out with the party recovering from a midnight attack by goblinoid assassins on their inn in the town of Korranberg. In a single, foritified room with patrolling guards, the party finally went back to sleep. Those who could dream - as in, everyone but the Kalashtar - were awakened simultaneously by disturbing nightmares.

The next couple hours were spent roleplaying the in-character reactions to these dreams - pondering whether or not they were visions of the past, or the future, or of a non-existant timeline; whether they were intentional or not; whether we should even do anything about them.

Some characters shared openly, which gave the party further insight into certain character's backstories.

Some clammed up and refused to talk - like, for instance, my character, who upon awakening went immediately downstairs and purchased, at great expense, the largest, foulest bottle of dwarven hooch he could find, and proceeded to get roaring drunk.

Our group generally meets once every other week - so twice a month. Therefore, in a 3.5 Edition game, we spent roughly 50% of our *monthly* roleplaying time without touching a single dice - and we haven't had our 2nd monthly session, yet, so that number will increase.

So, in summation, my anecdotal evidence is superior to your anecdotal evidence, and 3.X does not have the effect you claim it does. ;)
 

wait.. you BOTH played in Ebberon??? What a coincidence!!! You guys should meet up and have a crossover episode like the old happy Days/ Lavergne and Shirly episodes!!!
 

In a rules lite system only the basic NEEDED resolution mechanics are detailed. All other rules are optional that you can feel free to add. Adding the options won't fundamentaly change the basic mechanics of the game. It simply expands upon it.
The problem with this philosophy, for most gamers, is that using it assumes that all gamers really want to be game designers. IME, this is simply not true. WEG's D6 Star Wars system had this problem. There just weren't enough mechanics out there to deal with problems almost every adventuring group was going to run into, and so almost half of all rulings had to be made "on the fly."

While this may speak to the tastes of some, it made it a very difficult game to play, since the lack of mechanical depth meant "balance" was essentially a myth. If you were too restrictive on character type X, then they were useless. If you weren't strict enough, type X became the most powerful in the game!

I know balance is a dirty word to some people on this board, but I love it. It allows me to run a game with a ton of options and still be certain that all of the players will have their place at the table, and their moment in the sun. In the end, that's what's important.

All IMHO, of course.
 

francisca said:
Psion, I largely agree. Put your Munchkin Beanie on for a few minutes and meditate on the greater truths of the D&D editions from the viewpoint of a player trying to build "The Ultimate D&D PC" :p

Of the various editions (3.5, 3.0, 2E + Options, 2E, 1E + UA, 1E, Basic/Expert/etc.., and the Diaglo Edition), which is easiest to Min/Max and manipulate? Which is easiest to discard actual roleplay in favor of using die rolls based on mechanics?

Easiest to min/max? Probably 2e + Options. Second is probably 1e + UA, and third 1e or 2e. Why? Because the min/max options were so obvious and blatant that it was easy to master the ability to do so. Some races, some classes (and more improtantly class combinations) and some types of equipment were obviously better than others of their category. Making them the obvious min/max option.
 

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