Is it DnD, or MtG? (General Griping)

[MerricB]

Balance

Hmm, I'm not so sure it's as important for the PCs of a party to be balanced, as it its for each character in the party to have a role, and a chance to shine/perform.

That's actually the definition of Balance as it applies to PCs, John.

Although the primary way of assessing the balance of PCs is in a combat situation, I think we can safely say that some classes that may seem "underpowered" are actually there for the wider game - such as the Bard.

It is just that Combat is an extremely significant part of D&D, and the area where the rules come most into play, that we return to it as the determiner of balance.

The DM obviously will cause the balance between the classes to be adjusted, but there is a central point - a design assumption, if you will - that everyone is aware of.

Cheers!

 

[MerricB]

Well, for an example from the history of D&D, see my earlier description of the optional skills rules for RC D&D. Those were optional rules that did not favour one class over another.

I've just hauled out my copy of the RC to have a look. I think they benefit fighters a little more than wizards because they've got a couple of skills like Blind Shooting and Quickdraw.

However, they do seem to be a very rare example of an optional system that does have an actual game-play effect (minor though it be) while not unbalancing the system.

Although, I note that they do make characters more effective against monsters...

Cheers!

 

[Geron Raveneye]

Although, I note that they do make characters more effective against monsters...

Cheers!

Which probably was because nobody really minded monsters being a bit weaker than the heroes, because most of the monsters were cannon fodder after some time, except for the big ones...and no skill in the world helped you against a red dragon, not then and rarely now.
And if you wanted to create a villain, you gave him a class and skills.

 

[MerricB]

and no skill in the world helped you against a red dragon, not then and rarely now.

There are some feat-like skills in the RC book, which definitely would help you against a red dragon.

Cheers!

 

[Scribble]

Originally Posted by MerricB
... I've seen expressed in this thread an idea that you can have a rules-light system that allows balanced optional rules to be added.

I wish someone could tell me what that system was, because in the entire history of D&D, optional rules almost invariably favour one class over another. The change the balance of the game.

I think a large part of the reason in earlier editions added options tended to be unbalanced was simply because before 3e Balance just wasn't the buzz word. You see optional rules added to 3.x all the time and the designers still work to maintain balance.

 

[Geron Raveneye]

There are some feat-like skills in the RC book, which definitely would help you against a red dragon.

Cheers!

Which would be?

 

[MerricB]

I think a large part of the reason in earlier editions added options tended to be unbalanced was simply because before 3e Balance just wasn't the buzz word. You see optional rules added to 3.x all the time and the designers still work to maintain balance.

Replace "Balance just wasn't the buzz word" with "didn't have a clue what they were doing" and I think you'd have it.

The concept of balance has always been a part of AD&D - it's mentioned in the 1E Player's Handbook, and you see it again in the revisions that created 2E.

Why do you think the Haste was nerfed in 1E to age the recipients by a year, forcing a system shock roll? Because of balance.

The so-called "optional" system of Weapon specialization was to balance out fighters against wizards, but it was handled badly and gave fighters all the benefits at 1st level (when they were already tougher than wizards) rather than waiting for later.

Cheers!

 

[MerricB]

Which would be?

Quickdraw - +2 to initiative when firing arrows
Leadership - +1 to morale of henchmen (very useful against red dragons!)
Bravery - resist magical fear
Blindshooting - ability to shoot a target without seeing it (because of darkness, blindness, etc.)

Cheers!

 

[Geron Raveneye]

Quickdraw - +2 to initiative when firing arrows
Leadership - +1 to morale of henchmen (very useful against red dragons!)
Bravery - resist magical fear
Blindshooting - ability to shoot a target without seeing it (because of darkness, blindness, etc.)

Cheers!

And those definitely helped you against red dragons? Looks more like they made the dragon eat you last to draw out the game a little longer
(And yes, you're right, they gave you a slight advantage )

 

[Scribble]

Replace "Balance just wasn't the buzz word" with "didn't have a clue what they were doing" and I think you'd have it.

The concept of balance has always been a part of AD&D - it's mentioned in the 1E Player's Handbook, and you see it again in the revisions that created 2E.

Why do you think the Haste was nerfed in 1E to age the recipients by a year, forcing a system shock roll? Because of balance.
Cheers!

So how does that preclude a rules lite system from making balanced add on options? So we have a better way now, the point still remains. You can have a rules lite rules system, and a bunch of add ons that are all balanced, but not nessesary.