Is it DnD, or MtG? (General Griping)

[Doug McCrae]

I do remember the old system giving DM tips for storyline balance.

What!!? In first ed?

 

[Aust Diamondew]

I'm too young to remember before the last years of 2e (I'm nearly 19). But in my opinion people have this tendancy of not changing as a whole. There for I doubt 3e is much worse than previous editions (I remember several munchkins in the few 2e games I played in).

That being said what's wrong with players making knowledge checks to find out about things? If my character has spent time studying books and listening to stories about monsters he might know things that I, the player, may not know. Same thing applies to other skills, I don't need to know anything about tieing knots in order for my character to tie an uber knot with use rope, and I certainly don't need to know how to cast fireball for my character to do so.

I think one obvious thing with 3e/3.5e is that there are too many supplemental books to try and use/allow them all in one game. A DM needs to carefully monitor what he allows in the game. I try to keep my games as core as possible while still allowing my players to create the character concepts they want. If you don't need to take PRCs x, y and z in order to accomplish your character concept I won't let you (in fact no one in my games has had more than 1 PRC and less than half the characters in my games take PRCs).

 

[painandgreed]

All the while moving farther and farther away from its roots as ... a miniatures combat game.

More like devolving back to its roots as a miniatures combat game, or at least updated the miniature combat rules that D&D has always had into modern miniature combat rules as that gnre has evolved. No doubt that many of the new rules aid combat or can be ignored, but most of my group are of the opinion that 3.x was designed to sell minatures because that's where the money is these days. The miniatures combat game with randomly boxed minis sort of verifies this. The minis are good. Much better quality than some other similar games, but the comon questions all have to deal with how they'll actually help any sort of RPG. Say I need an umberhulk for tonights adventure, I can't just run out and buy one. For that matter they really don't fit at all with generic D&D. How many times has anybody here actually run into a feindish dire weasel? I have one freind that collects the minis, and he seems to get one in each box. Most of the minis seem to be strange thigns that will never end up getting used at all. I'm waiting for stores and dealers at comic shows to stat carrying individual minis so I can pick and choose (like they do Hero Clix) but so far, no luck.

 

[francisca]

Sorry, It sounds more like I misunderstood you, or applied other folks arguments and wrapped them up with you.

No sweat. It's a message board, it happens!

I understand the sentiment, and that's not a bad solution. However, one thing I also come back to is that while I'm the main DM, I'm not the ONLY DM. This was true back in AD&D days, as well. How can I keep players ignorant of the stats for a beholder, if two of them used them in their own games last week? That's why I invented new monsters back then...but these days, I can do it consistently, within the rules...instead of by total fiat. I consider that a bonus of the system, not being forced into mechanical mode. Different folks may see it differently.

Well, we've always been fine with trusting players to play what their character knows, not what the player knows, as most of us has spent time behind the screen.

Tweaking and creating monsters is a time-honored tradition, and one of the best parts of D&D, and part of why we play. They keep the game fresh for those of us who have a dragon scalp of every color on our trophy shelf.

As far as consistency, I'm not 100% convicned that it is any better now than it was before. A DM is still responsible for putting forth a challenging, but not completely overwhelming (well, not always, anyway) encounter for the PCs to play off of. CR and all of the well defined mechanics helps to a certain degree, but what if you are playing with a group of 6 players running Fighters and Clerics, or running a game with a higher or lower degree of magic? It's down to the DM to do his job, in a fair way, just as it always has been. Despite the streamlined, cohesive ruleset of 3.x, a DM can still screw the party, either through malice or negligence. It all comes down to trust between the DM and players. But now we're getting into other threads.

Further, that whole idea is also somewhat flawed in that after the N-th encounter with monster X, the players will have a good idea of it's capablities, anyhow. The third time you fight a Chuul, you know everything there is to know about it...unless you modify it, which invalidates the whole concern about keeping the info secret in the first place. Besides which, there are so many monsters out there, my players rarely remember specific instances of more obscure creatures when they meet them, anyhow. Now, at that time, I may deny them access to the MM, during the encounter (who remembers the stats of a Yeth hound or Yrrthak of the top of their head, and their special attacks?), but I find it hard to believe that a wizard with an INT of 34 and a Knowledge Arcana of 40+ is going to have a hard time figuring certain things out about a creature. Again, that could be just me.

Well, I dunno what to say, other than the honor system has worked well with every group I have played with. The guys I have played with (with some exceptions of course), just plain understand that their characters cannot act on knowledge they do not have. When they start to stray, it's understood that the DM will prod them back.

And sure, the the wizard in your example is going to be able to figure out alot about a particular creature. Much more than say, the 2nd level wizard the guy was playing in my example. I understand that, and I take it into account when the knowledge checks are made. I also try to work in past history at the time. For example, if the wizard would make the check, I'd make a reference to a musty old tomb he had read while researching spells when he last leveled up, or some such.

My point being is that if denying exclusive access to the DMG and MM, that it's a quixotic endeavour, and not really necessary to the game, per se.

I never said exclusive. I'm not B.A. Felton. I know these guys have the books at home. I just don't let them thumb through the MM and such at the table. In retrospect, I guess I didn't make it clear in the original post. I assumed when I said "never", it would be obvious that I meant it in regards to that situation.

 

[fredramsey]

All you have to do is go to http://www.rpg.net and click on the RPG store. Look for the minis. Every time a set comes out, within a week they are selling individual ones.

I have a rather huge collection myself, and use them all the time in the RPG. I make sure and get duplicates of bugbears, kobolds, etc.

[snip]
I'm waiting for stores and dealers at comic shows to stat carrying individual minis so I can pick and choose (like they do Hero Clix) but so far, no luck.

 

[diaglo]

Yeah. But really, I think I would be hard pressed to deny that a large part of D&D's appeal is player empowerment. The trick for designers and DMs is to balance that so all the players have fun.

it has always been about player involvement. from OD&D on up.

for me... i use NASA's example of engineering. the more moving parts the greater the chance that something will be in error. and the greater the chance of a repeat of the space shuttle disasters.

KISS (keep it simple stupid) has been and will remain my philosphy for D&D.

but that doesn't mean being closed minded. it means getting things to work so they don't blow up.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

I don't intend to bash, just observe.

I think in the beginning D&D (or rpgs in general) was it's own entity. As computer rpgs became more and more prevalent, there was a split between paper and computer. They were similar, but distinct. With 3e, D&D embraced the other path. For example, crpgs typically depend more on gear to make you better. I think that's more true in 3e than 2e. Whether this sort of thing is good or bad is up to the individual.

My experience is so polar opposite it is not even funny.

Because of the ever progressively slower leveling in 1e/2e, there comes a point where you are not really adventuring for xp. If you are adventuring to get "better", you are really adventuring to acquire more stuff.

In my experience, 1e/2e PC over 6th level are mostly defined by their equipment. One of my favorite things about 3e is that characters are finally now interesting individuals without their Bags of Holding filled with magical equipment.

 

[Psion]

All you have to do is go to http://www.rpg.net and click on the RPG store.

Why would you do that if you click on the RPGshop link here, it sends you to RPGshop well, but with ENWorld getting a cut.

 

[Orius]

On the other hand it never got out of control in our campaigns - you might find a 10th level wizard with a staff of power or staff of the magi but so what? The fights were as hard, the victories were as sweet.

Giving out vorpal swords to 2nd level warriors was obviously a no-no, but the "treasure equivalence" has greatly reduced the specialness of magical treasure in my experience - partly because you often "can't" be given any of the gosh-wow items at levels below 10th now if the DM is following the guidelines (and that is what the guidelines are -for- after all!)

As a DM, I generally appreciate the guidelines myself. I always tended to be somewhat conservative with handing out treasure, influenced by 2e's concept of game balance = strict control of magic. So in my games the "gosh-wow" items tended to be pretty damn rare if it was an adventure I had prepared on my own, as I tended to avoid giving out stuff that might be too powerful. The 3e system of assigning different power levels to items, minor, medium, major, and epic give at least a rough estimate of how powerful the items are compared to each other, and as a result, I'm more generous with my treasures than I was in the past. However, I still randomly roll for the stuff, so the players aren't necessarily going to be following some standard pattern of gear improvement.

 

[fredramsey]

Oops! My ignorance is showing

Why would you do that if you click on the RPGshop link here, it sends you to RPGshop well, but with ENWorld getting a cut.