Is it inherently evil to summon up a demon?
- Thread starter blackshirt5
- Start date
So, if I was a good aligned character and I had a 20ft x 20ft room constructed, summoned numerous demons into said room, and had the exits sealed off with force walls, this would make me evil? The demons could not escape, they could not talk to me, they could do nothing evil at all, and after the duration expired they would dissapear. I do not see how doing this could possibly make me evil.
Also a dretch has an int of 5. I do not see how it could be smart enough to sow discord between the members of the party in any way that was not obvious, and therefore ignored.
Also a dretch has an int of 5. I do not see how it could be smart enough to sow discord between the members of the party in any way that was not obvious, and therefore ignored.
Blood Jester
First Post
Mark said:
Well put, I'm with you 100%. I think the spell descriptors are getting wayyy too much mileage in this debate. If there is a 'holy karma tabulator' out there in the game, then intentions and results count.
Because of the evil descriptor, I'd say yes. The way I rationalize it is as such:
summoning is not an alignment-based act, true. However, if you are summoning something from an outer plane, you are tapping into the energies of said alignment (possibly tapping into those energies from within yourself). It isn't the summon of the evil creature by itself that makes it an evil spell but rather it is the need to tap into the evil energies to cotact the evil plane that make it as such..
anyway, that's just how it works for my games..
summoning is not an alignment-based act, true. However, if you are summoning something from an outer plane, you are tapping into the energies of said alignment (possibly tapping into those energies from within yourself). It isn't the summon of the evil creature by itself that makes it an evil spell but rather it is the need to tap into the evil energies to cotact the evil plane that make it as such..
anyway, that's just how it works for my games..
The Forsaken One
Explorer
Rules wise it's an evil spell and such blabla we all know that now...
But what if you conjur up a Demon or a Demon Lord for that matter to bring him to justice or let him explain his deeds for a judge or tribunal... (Anyone played Neverwinter Nights?)
But what if you conjur up a Demon or a Demon Lord for that matter to bring him to justice or let him explain his deeds for a judge or tribunal... (Anyone played Neverwinter Nights?)
In another thread, I realized something - a tendency in the [Evil] descriptor.
Generally, a spell has that descriptor when you are specifically bringing an evil force into the world - summoning evil creatures, creating undead, or bringing up force specifically against Good.
Thus, for the most part, a spell is evil when it brings evil into the world. Whether you are in full control of this evil, and intend only to use it for good purposes is besides the point. You are responsible for these evil forces being present, and thus the karmic weight rests on your shoulders.
Generally, a spell has that descriptor when you are specifically bringing an evil force into the world - summoning evil creatures, creating undead, or bringing up force specifically against Good.
Thus, for the most part, a spell is evil when it brings evil into the world. Whether you are in full control of this evil, and intend only to use it for good purposes is besides the point. You are responsible for these evil forces being present, and thus the karmic weight rests on your shoulders.
dreaded_beast
First Post
Voadam said:
very good point.
in my opinion, there needs to be a division between the "mechanical" aspects of what evil is within the game and the "moral" aspects of evil. in my opinion, the "mechanical" aspects of what the [evil] descriptor is summed up nicely in the above quote, along with my examples from previous posts within this thread. that being the case, if we look at it from a mainly "mechanical" point of view, there is nothing inherently evil or good about casting said spells (unless it is otherwise said within the spells description).
when looking at the "moral" aspect of the game, i believe this will vary widely between campaign. it is up to the dm and the group to determine if certain acts would constitute as "evil" depending on the type of game they play. in my opinion, this would be something akin to a "house rule" (if my "mechanical" interpretation of how the [evil] descriptor is used in the game is correct) since it would supercede the "mechanical" rule with a decision that is made by the dm and the group that fits their particular style of playing.
I think it depends on how your world works...
In my campaign, any Outsider that is an Enemy of the Pantheon of gods, is considered to be evil. They are refered to as Demons.
Thus anyone who summons a Demon, is classed as evil, because they are calling on a force that is an Enemy to their world. (This is the IC perception)
However there are other spirits and entities who are not classed as Demons, because they are either neutral in the eyes of the Pantheon, or are allied and benevolent to mortals. Summoning these beings is not considered evil.
Religion plays a large part in my Campaign world (Think Glorantha, but with only one ruling pantheon instead of many ). Almost every aspect of life has some reflection in faith. (This is where many of the "Feats" and "Class Powers" come in... they are "Gifts" from the Pantheon.) Thus to go against the established faith is an act of Evil.
I know this doesn't Necessarily fit with the letter of the law in the Rulebooks, but as i say, it depends on how you run your world. The players can use summoning spells to call on other outsiders, but they can choose to call on Demons. And if they do that, they know exactly what they are doing, and how the Faith views that act, so yes... in terms of this world, they are comitting an act of Evil by inviting these creatures into the Mortal Realm.
Just my 2cps woth...
In my campaign, any Outsider that is an Enemy of the Pantheon of gods, is considered to be evil. They are refered to as Demons.
Thus anyone who summons a Demon, is classed as evil, because they are calling on a force that is an Enemy to their world. (This is the IC perception)
However there are other spirits and entities who are not classed as Demons, because they are either neutral in the eyes of the Pantheon, or are allied and benevolent to mortals. Summoning these beings is not considered evil.
Religion plays a large part in my Campaign world (Think Glorantha, but with only one ruling pantheon instead of many ). Almost every aspect of life has some reflection in faith. (This is where many of the "Feats" and "Class Powers" come in... they are "Gifts" from the Pantheon.) Thus to go against the established faith is an act of Evil.
I know this doesn't Necessarily fit with the letter of the law in the Rulebooks, but as i say, it depends on how you run your world. The players can use summoning spells to call on other outsiders, but they can choose to call on Demons. And if they do that, they know exactly what they are doing, and how the Faith views that act, so yes... in terms of this world, they are comitting an act of Evil by inviting these creatures into the Mortal Realm.
Just my 2cps woth...
Lord Ravinous
First Post
I dont think its any more an evil act to summon a demon as it is a good act to summon a celestial, but for some reason, by the rules, its evil. Whichever u wanna run with.
