Is it inherently evil to summon up a demon?

[dreaded_beast]

In my view of alignment, casting any spell with a [Good] descriptor will put a small amount of good karma on the caster's balance. If he casts it enough, it will begin to "white out" some of the evil deeds recorded in his aura. Eventually he will stop showing up on detect evil. I could conceive of a situation where someone used this to disguise his aura, if he's expecting magical investigation.

i believe i misunderstood your previous post.

this is how i interpret the above. a caster will accumulate good "karma" points if they cast enough spells with the good descriptor. if the caster originally had an evil alignment, that alignment will show up as "good" in cases where their alignment will be checked. however, the caster will still be considered "morally evil", although his alignment will be detected as good. that being the case, under the above rules, could a character originally with a "good" alignment, cast enough "evil" spells, be detected as "evil", but still be "morally good". in other words, still a "good" person, but just "evil" when detected for alignment and determining alignment effects?

i believe this is a completely valid and interesting way to interpret alignment. very cool. however, in my opinion, based on the rules i do not think that this is what was intended, but very cool nonetheless.

Someone mentioned the redemption angle, which IMO is a red herring. If the necro wants to start doing good deeds instead of evil deeds, then he just does it. Just as a paladin could decide to burn down a village, a BBEG necro could decide to volunteer at the local soup kitchen. He'll still have an evil alignment, at least until he's done enough good to "white out" the evil from his aura, but what's wrong with that? It's good roleplaying fodder. And used properly in a story, it'll make those PC paladins think twice before slaughtering anyone who detects as evil.

in my opinion, this needs to be looked at from a game mechanic point of view instead of a role-playing one or house-rules. my interpretation of house-rules are rules that are created when issues appear in a campaign that are not explicity addressed by the core rules, such as the posters original question. that being the case, the dm can create any house rule to address any situation, thereby over-ruling or superseding the original rules.

in regards to the above quote, i am looking at the means of changing the alignment from "evil" to "good" from a purely mechanical point of view. from a mechanic point of view, in my opinion, there are clear cut rules (most of the time at least) from the core rules that can be used to support an opinion, whereas from a role-playing or house-fule point of view, most statements made are specific to a particular campaign or that person's particular point of view along with that person's own prejudices and biases that go along with it.

 

[dreaded_beast]

The SRD is online, at http://www.opengamingfoundation.org

The rule kenjib referred to is in the Cleric description. It states: "Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells: A cleric can't cast spells of an alignment opposed to his own or to his deity's." A good cleric cannot cast [Evil] spells, full stop.

ah, thank you!

this is more food for thought.

 

[AuraSeer]

this is how i interpret the above. a caster will accumulate good "karma" points if they cast enough spells with the good descriptor. if the caster originally had an evil alignment, that alignment will show up as "good" in cases where their alignment will be checked. however, the caster will still be considered "morally evil", although his alignment will be detected as good.

Basically, yeah. He'd spend a lot of time in Neutrality before making it all the way to Good, though. And it'd take lots of time to get all the way from the low end of Neutrality, all the way to the other end of the spectrum.

Note that this kind of alignment change wouldn't erase the effects of evil deeds. If a BBEG casts bazillions of "white magic" spells and manages to get his alignment to CG, but then goes out and chucks a fireball into the orphanage, he won't keep that Good alignment for long.

that being the case, under the above rules, could a character originally with a "good" alignment, cast enough "evil" spells, be detected as "evil", but still be "morally good". in other words, still a "good" person, but just "evil" when detected for alignment and determining alignment effects?

Yes, exactly. If a wizard behaves according to a neutral alignment, but often summons fiends for assistance, I'd have him detect as NE.

i believe this is a completely valid and interesting way to interpret alignment. very cool.

Thanks, it's nice to be appreciated.

 

[Tiefling]

i believe i misunderstood your previous post.

this is how i interpret the above. a caster will accumulate good "karma" points if they cast enough spells with the good descriptor. if the caster originally had an evil alignment, that alignment will show up as "good" in cases where their alignment will be checked. however, the caster will still be considered "morally evil", although his alignment will be detected as good. that being the case, under the above rules, could a character originally with a "good" alignment, cast enough "evil" spells, be detected as "evil", but still be "morally good". in other words, still a "good" person, but just "evil" when detected for alignment and determining alignment effects?

i believe this is a completely valid and interesting way to interpret alignment. very cool. however, in my opinion, based on the rules i do not think that this is what was intended, but very cool nonetheless.

That's a pretty cool idea. While the character's throughts, opinions and way of life might be unchanged, he acquires the "taint" or something. I like.

 

[Voadam]

It doesn't say it explicitly, but let's look at the various parts of the SRD related to this:

"Summon Monster I
Conjuration (Summoning) [see text]
...
When the character uses a summoning spell to summon an air, chaotic, earth, evil, fire, good, lawful, or water creature, it is a spell of that type."

"Planar Binding
Conjuration (Calling) [see text]
...
When the character uses a calling spell to call an air, chaotic, earth, evil, fire, good, lawful, or water creature, it is a spell of that type."

"Detect Evil
...
Evil creature HD / 5
...
Evil magic item
or spell Caster level / 2"


Summoning spells are evil when cast to summon a demon. They have the evil descriptor, which is to say that the spells are described in the rules as being evil. Both the spell and the creature brought into the world also detect as evil.


"Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells: A cleric can't cast spells of an alignment opposed to his own or to his deity's. "


According to the SRD, every single good deity in existance forbids his servants from casting evil spells.

Okay, the spell is described as evil and detects as evil and is banned from use by all devotees of all good gods everywhere. It is explicitly a taboo -- creating something evil, which you are not allowed to do. For me the implication is crystal clear. Morality is a fundamental and immaleable constant in D&D and all deities (being the supreme authorities on morality) universally declare that this is an evil act. Casting good spells is likewise a good act forbidden by evil gods.

From my standpoint, how evil the act is, is what remains an open point of discussion. It may indeed be the lesser of two evils, and thus the best possible choice for someone presented with a moral dilemma and as such will not incur any noticeable alignment shift. That still does not make it somehow no longer an evil act though.

As regards "summoning a celestial away from whatever important duties they happen to be performing," this is not an issue to me. The celestials want to be summoned. Being summoned and performing acts of good is one of the duties that they perform. It is not an interruption.

A couple points under the core rules.

Detect evil detects undead as evil regardless of their actual alignment (neutral skeletons and good FR baelnorn liches included).

Good deities forbidding evil spells is an inference. It seems much more likely that they physically/metaphysically can not grant spells of the evil alignments since it is an absolute prohibition regardless of the deities beliefs on the matter.

You can have summoned good creatures attack good opponents. It is possible to use summoned celestials for evil.

Detecting as [Evil] or [Good] (a supernatural aura/taint that is detectable) is separate from the moral aspects of an action. You can not detect evil actions only spells, magic items and creatures.

Summoning a demon does not detect as more or less evil depending upon the amount of evil the demon can do or does, or is doing, it is based upon its Hit Dice for the demon and the level of the spell for the spell and these parameters only.

 

[Norfleet]

I'd say summoning a demon probably qualifies as naughty. In and of itself, however, it won't make you evil. It's sort of like killing people, which is certainly worse, yet good characters can kill lots of people and not become evil.

 

[Mark]

I think it depends on why you summon the evil creatures/beings. If you summon them to perform evil acts, yes, it is evil. If you summon them to gain information to help fight evil, then, nope.

 

[Umbran]

I think it depends on why you summon the evil creatures/beings. If you summon them to perform evil acts, yes, it is evil. If you summon them to gain information to help fight evil, then, nope.

Try this...
Summoning evil creatures is evil.
Using them to perform evil acts is evil.
Using them to perform good acts is good.

Your overall alignment is a long-term average of your behaviors. So long as the good done using the demons is great, it will outweigh the evil done by summoning them. A quite literal case of the ends justifying the means. You'd be even more good if you could find a method that wasn't evil.

And, of course, this still doesn't mean that said demon isn't gonna eat your head when you get lazy thinkin' you're an all-powerful demon-user dude. Or that the local clerics aren't gonna skin you alive for sumoing powerful demons within city limits, or what have you.

As the old adage goes: "Do not call up that which you cannot put on hold."

 

[Mark]

Try this...
Summoning evil creatures is evil.
Using them to perform evil acts is evil.
Using them to perform good acts is good.

Your overall alignment is a long-term average of your behaviors. So long as the good done using the demons is great, it will outweigh the evil done by summoning them. A quite literal case of the ends justifying the means. You'd be even more good if you could find a method that wasn't evil.

And, of course, this still doesn't mean that said demon isn't gonna eat your head when you get lazy thinkin' you're an all-powerful demon-user dude. Or that the local clerics aren't gonna skin you alive for sumoing powerful demons within city limits, or what have you.

As the old adage goes: "Do not call up that which you cannot put on hold."

Doesn't quite fit for me. Summoning alone isn't evil, IMO. It totally depends on why and what follows. I can even imagine a temple that summons evil beings to help in training their fighters/paladins in how to kill them when they run into them in their goodly travels. I just don't see how summoning, in and of itself, should be considered evil.

 

[Umbran]

I just don't see how summoning, in and of itself, should be considered evil.

It's one word. It pervades the whole concept of the game: Magic! When you've got magic, anything, even the unreasonable and annoying, is possible.