Is it inherently evil to summon up a demon?

[green slime]

However, Pro: Evil isn't an intelligent outsider that's wholly evil and vile. The Pro: Evil spell does nothing but protect your well-being and is completely reliant on your own conscious decisions.

A summoned demon will be plotting against you as soon as you conjure him.

Ummm.... I take it you mean Protection from Good (Prot.fr.Good)?

That is true. I didn't add the descriptor to this spell, but those are the consequences per the rules.

What reason would a person have to use Prot.fr.Good? Well, you mentioned one, but I put it to you, that the paladin shouldn't be attacking mindless anyway, but always be ready to negotiate (although warily) with someone who seemed reluctant to do battle. They are Lawful Good, not Lawful Stupid.

And if the paladin is under a Domination or somesuch, then Prot.fr.Evil should suffice...

 

[Tisvon]

Here's a thought:

What if a PC had a powerful Demon enemy(Say, a Balor), summoned it, and killed it? Would this be evil? On one hand, you're inviting a powerful demon into the world, so it's evil. On the other hand, you're killing a powerful evil creature. (Remember, it can't come back.)

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

There are some precedents for good or neutral characters summoning demons on a regular basis.

The basic logic is that if you can get a demon to do what you say, then forcing a demon to do good, or at least your bidding, is better than forcing something that is generally more valuable to creation to do the same thing.

A demon that's working for you has no chance to be doing its normal mischief, whereas an angel that's working for you isn't doing its normal good deeds for the day.

King Solomon is particularly famous for this sort of thing.

 

[WayneLigon]

I guess it depends on the inherant morality of your world.

Generally speaking, it's considered an evil act; probably one of the few that pretty much insure instant damnation, do not pass Go, do not collect $200.

Now, classically speaking, it can be done and done with little harm to the summoner if information is all that's asked for. Services were almost always trickier, and it was still considered the blackest of the Black Arts.

In most literature it's considered a bad idea and pretty much a straight ticket to damnation. However, I've also read stories where it was a simply business exchange since the sorcerer had the upper hand on the demon; no signing contracts or sacrificing souls, etc; just knowing the spell gave him power over the demon and all the demon could do was bide his time and wait for the caster to make a mistake (scoot his foot over the summoning circle, etc).

 

[Zappo]

Summoning a fiend is prohibited to good priest, as all summoning or calling spells have the [evil] descriptor when used to evoke an evil outsider. This can represent the fact that the deity doesn't want his cleric to summon an evil outsider, or that the good deity can't send an evil servant to him. Wizard don't have this restriction.

The morals of the summoning itself are clear in D&D terms. It has the [evil] descriptor == it's an evil act. The in-game reasons for this being evil are supernatural or religious, and trascend logic. I wouldn't be surprised; most real world religions have apparently arbitrary rules and conditions that must be obeyed without questioning.

Besides, in the majority of cases, calling a fiend is a fairly evil action even by agnostic standards. You have to bargain with it, giving it something in return for its services. The fiend will do everything in its power to do as much evil as possible while it is in the world, and the only real protection the world has is the skill and wits of the caster. Personally, I'd feel much safer if I knew that the fiend is on another plane.

Sometimes you have to take the risk. In these cases, it's still an evil action. It could be the lesser of two evils though.

Summoning, OTOH, is far less dangerous. The fiend must do what you say. However, it may attempt to pervert it, and it may attempt to give you some reasonable-sounding suggestions that ultimately lead to eternal damnation, and many fiends are damn good at that. It's still not something to be done lightly.

 

[Oni]

The morals of the summoning itself are clear in D&D terms. It has the [evil] descriptor == it's an evil act.

Perhaps I am failing to recall correctly, but I do not believe that this is ever stated anywhere. Could you point me to where it says the evil descriptor does any more than limit clerics in what spells they cast or explain how such spells hold up under divination magics? By your logic summoning a celestial away from whatever important duties they happen to be performing you are doing a good act. If some evil necromancer summons enough celestial hawks does this suddenly mean they are on the path to redemption?

 

[Umbran]

The basic logic is that if you can get a demon to do what you say, then forcing a demon to do good, or at least your bidding, is better than forcing something that is generally more valuable to creation to do the same thing.

And here's where the Vulcans get into trouble. That logic alone is insufficient to describe the situation. Demons are not logical

Theory is a very nice country. In practice, the "if" you have in there is a big one. If you can get a demon to do what you say. Sure. Right. You can get the demon to do what you say. Every time. Your magics are infallible. Sure, the demon cannot be crafty enough to somehow outwit your magics, and slip in a half-truth or incomplete truth that makes all the difference....

Hubris. Pride. One of the seven deadly sins. Sins evil. Remember, folks?

 

[David Argall]

Not absolutely, but...

There is no necessity that summoning a demon be evil.

You are, however, bringing a dedicated evil creature to where it will have opportunity to attempt evil on innocents. It will be eagerly looking for any defect in your moral armor, any defect in the magic restraining it, and any defect in your orders that allow it to do evil, and since you are mortal, the odds are good there are such weaknesses.

In other words, don't try it. You are asking to get screwed.

 

[Zappo]

Perhaps I am failing to recall correctly, but I do not believe that this is ever stated anywhere. Could you point me to where it says the evil descriptor does any more than limit clerics in what spells they cast or explain how such spells hold up under divination magics?

Mmm, opengamingfoundation.org seems to be down, otherwise I'd search the SRD. But even if it wasn't explicitly written down, IMO it's a safe assumption anyway. I can't remember any single instance in D&D, and very few in fantasy in general, where raising undead and summoning demons aren't considered intrinsically evil acts. Besides, an [evil] spell detects as evil with Detect Evil, so it's evil. That is, unless you're going to argue that Detect Evil doesn't, in fact, detect evil, but that would get a little too far-fetched.

By your logic summoning a celestial away from whatever important duties they happen to be performing you are doing a good act. If some evil necromancer summons enough celestial hawks does this suddenly mean they are on the path to redemption?

Logic? I didn't talk about logic. Well, I did, but the sentence was "[D&D morals] trascend logic". In other words, the fact that summoning fiends is an evil act in itself isn't logical, and I don't care about it, it's still evil. The gods say so. The gods are the source of morality. So it's evil. That's how religion-based morality works even IRL.

If, instead, you're talking about my attempt to logically explain why summoning fiends is evil, then you should also notice that I wasn't talking about celestials and goodness.

 

[Storm Raven]

Thus the creature attacks your opponents, to the best of its ability, but without much regard to your friends... That Pitfiend may blast the area with a Meteor Swarm... Or destroy artifacts of great worth in the process...

You cannot summon a Pit Fiend using the Monster Summoning spells. The most powerful demon you can summon would be a Vrock.

As to the other problems, just make sure to give it instructions (you didn't summon a demon without being able to speak Abyssal or otherwise communicate with it did you?) Instruct it specifically how you want it to attack, and what to do each round. Talking is a free action.

As to information providing, any information given freely by a CE being should be treated with grave distrust. These creatures are the masters of lies and deceit. How can you trust them? There is nothing in the spell compelling them to act truthfully. You compel them to attack, or perform other actions to the best of their abilities. But they are in no way bound by your intent... only your word...

Instruct it to respond to your questions fully and truthfully. "Respond to my questions with the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth" should cover most such situations.

Dealing with fiends is difficult, but not impossible.