D&D 5E Is it just me or does it look like we are getting the "must have feats" once again?

Sure. But worth spending an entire feat on?
Just worth more than Indomitable. And, no, I don't think fighters should have to pay feat taxes to get their 'rightful' level of durability. Just patching up the two major saves they lack proficiency in would eat up their 2-feat advantage, if they did go for one per feat.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Resilient is the best example we have?

Resilient is an example of a "crappy" feat at low levels that seems to become amazingly good at high levels.

Am I willing to spend a feat for +2 to a save? Probably not, other things to do.

But +6? That's pretty darn good. Especially since at higher levels its less about "making your guy even cooler" and more about "ensuring that your character is able to do his coolness".
 

Perhaps the solution is not simply to grant "bypasses immunity" to the pyromancer's damage spells, but to add something like this to EA:

"Permanently add hold person to your list of prepared spells. However, instead of being limited to humanoids, it is limited to creatures with immunity to the chosen element."
Best suggestion on the thread so far.

You're not generally going to take this before you get to 20 on an attribute. The benefits on your attack rolls and on the saves you cause outstrips the defensive benefits. And you certainly won't be taking this feat to get your prime to 20 - as all PCs are already proficient with their prime attribute's saves.

So, let's say that you get your prime to 20 at level 4 or 8 (maybe 6 if you get the extra attribute bonuses). Now you're ready to take this feat - right? At levels 6, 8 or 12? If you take it there, you've already spent a long time without it.
As [MENTION=5889]Stalker0[/MENTION] points out on this thread, and as was discussed at length, with many worked examples, on the "weak saving throws" thread, the need for the feat doesn't arise until upper levels.

A 13th level wizard casts spells with a save DC of 18 (8 +5 for stat +5 for prof). So a fighter with +1 for WIS, or a mage with +1 for CON, has a 20% chance of saving (17+ required). If proficiency is acquired, the chance at 13th level goes to 45% (12+ required).

With indomitable, the fighter's chance to save with a +1 vs DC 18 is 1 - (4/5)^2, = 9/25 or 36%. With indomitable and proficiency, the fighter's chance to save vs DC 18 becomes 1 - (11/20)^2 = 279/400, or about 70%.

I don't think you do take it now. Why not? Because that +1 attribute is going to be in the attribute that gets a save bonus. And there will only be 2 abilities tied to saves that happen often enough to be worth while and few classes give you much benefit for raising an additional 'good' stat (con, dex, wis).

<snip>

Further, let's be honest about how useful that save bonus is. In 4E we had feats that gave a huge bonus for one save. And they were rarely taken.
You are not taking it for the stat boost, you are taking it for the save boost.

Raising defences in 4e was not as important (although it can be quite viable for certain builds); but at least in my experience 4e players absolutely take feats and abilities that let them overcome SoS effects. In my game every PC has Superior Will, the Paladin also has Dispater's Iron Discipline to get a bonus to save vs daze, stun and dom, and the fighter has a utility power that lets him negate a dom effect once per day. In 5e, buffing saving throws via this feat is the functional equivalent of those 4e abilities.

Players can play their PCs anyway they want, but they shouldn't rely on the game design to cater mechanically to their roleplaying / character creation preferences.
That strikers me as an odd claim. I'm having trouble seeing what else the PC build mechanics are for! They don't have any intrinsic value that I can see.
 

I am still not sure that taking Resilient in any save that you do not have a good Ability mod is going to be worth it.

Your target's seem to be 8 + Proficiency plus Ability Modifier.

Resilient basically negates the Proficiency, so you basically rolling your Ability mod versus 8 + Ability Modifier.

That means if your opponent has say a +5 modifier, you need a +3 to have a 50/50 chance.*


For me, sinking a feat and then getting my Wisdom up to 16, to get to the heady heights of being 50/50 on one type of save, is just too expensive to be worth it. I think your better of off just accepting spells are going to effect you, and become better at killing wizards.


*O.k. yes, Indomitable makes it better than this three times. Still not worth it.
 

The overarching theme isn't fire in that case, the theme is mental impairment.

You have to jump through flaming hoops to gimp a character enough to make this feat not suck. Because the feat sucks.

It's also a missed opportunity, they could have made something interesting, instead they just made a very boring feat that is also a trap.

Calling anyone who likes themed characters mentally impaired? Not cool. Please don't throw insults around. Plane Sailing, ENWorld admin

SOmetimes it is really fun to play a mentally impared pyromancer. I think the feat does what it should do. Bypassing fire resistance may also be better than you may think. It´s usually the hard encounters, where the enemy may put up some fire resistance spells on them...
Maybe I´d like the feat to also reduce fire immunity to just resistance.

Also remember: if a feat is too good, it is a trap choice not to take it. And that is the worse error.
 


How is anything from a completely OPTIONAL subsystem "must have"? :erm:
Really easily? It being optional in no way changes a must-have feat into not must-have. If anything, it makes the problem worse since people will clamor all the more to get it.

For example, let's say a feat added your level to damage with your attacks and spells. That'd be such a vast swing (once you got past 1st or so) that it would warp people towards more attacks, spells with multiple damage instances, and convince people to drop +2 to a stat to get +lvl to damage. That'd be must-have for anyone who wanted to deal damage. It'd probably also make a fair number of DMs go "And we're not using the feat system since it's broken"
 

Really easily? It being optional in no way changes a must-have feat into not must-have. If anything, it makes the problem worse since people will clamor all the more to get it.
And let's be honest here, the feat system might technically be optional, but it's still going to be the standard. The vast majority of 3e and 4e adopters of 5e are going to use it. (I have now successfully set up a queue of at least 10 quotes of "We played 3e, and we're not using feats!")
 

That strikers me as an odd claim. I'm having trouble seeing what else the PC build mechanics are for! They don't have any intrinsic value that I can see.

I should have put the phrases "all of their" and "in the core rules" in that sentence.

Players can play their PCs anyway they want, but they shouldn't rely on the game design to cater mechanically to all of their roleplaying / character creation preferences in the core rules.

There are standard classes and then there are corner case classes (like in my mind, elementalists).

In 3E, the vast majority of corner case classes were called prestige classes and were not in the core books (even though some prestige classes were in the core books).

This entire discussion of a pyromancer closely relates to a 3E Elemental Savant which came out in the Tome and Blood (which was about the 4th 3E splat book to come out) and later on in the 3.5 Complete Arcane book, again not a core book. I suspect that the same thing will happen in 5E.

An Elemental Savant is not in the 3.5 SRD because it did not show up in any of the 3E/3.5 core books like the Arcane Trickster (a subclass that again shows up in 5E core).

So my point is that core cannot have everything in it that players want to play.


I have never had anyone want to play an elementalist in any of my games over the decades. But earlier this year, I had a player who was not familiar with 4E want to play a thief who can cast a few minor spells. In 5E terms, he was talking about an Arcane Trickster. My anecdotal experiences do not mean anything, but the designers of 5E did not think it was important to put an elementalist in the core rules (and I personally have never played with anyone who wanted to do that). So to me, an elementalist is an obscure corner case concept/class.

I suspect they put Arcane Trickster into 5E because it was a core prestige class in 3E.


They did put one elementalist feat into 5E, but again, I think that the reason to do that was not so that players could design elementalists. I think that the feat was there solely for a mechanical reason (to overcome resist) and nothing more. Feat design has often been more about "how to overcome a certain mechanical effect" than anything else.

If there is a monster defense in the game that the PCs cannot directly overcome, then some game designer is going to come up with a feat to do it. Monsters have resist, feat. Monsters have immune, feat. Monsters have insubstantial, feat

It's inevitable, but it's not necessarily in core. In the case of Elemental Adept, the feat to overcome the monster defense is in core.

But I can pretty much guarantee that eventually, there will be a feat, or subclass, or spell to directly overcome nearly every monster defense and special monster attack out there.
 

They did put one elementalist feat into 5E, but again, I think that the reason to do that was not so that players could design elementalists. I think that the feat was there solely for a mechanical reason (to overcome resist) and nothing more. Feat design has often been more about "how to overcome a certain mechanical effect" than anything else.

If there is a monster defense in the game that the PCs cannot directly overcome, then some game designer is going to come up with a feat to do it. Monsters have resist, feat. Monsters have immune, feat. Monsters have insubstantial, feat

It's inevitable, but it's not necessarily in core. In the case of Elemental Adept, the feat to overcome the monster defense is in core.

But I can pretty much guarantee that eventually, there will be a feat, or subclass, or spell to directly overcome nearly every monster defense and special monster attack out there.

Hm. This seems exactly wrong to me. There are almost zero feats other than Elemental Adept that are designed to work around monster defenses. And they actively designed 5e monsters and stuff not to require that kind of escalation. I think it's very, very likely that the only reason Elemental Adept is in the PHB is specifically so people can play elementalists. And if elementalists really are less popular than arcane tricksters, well hey, maybe that's why they spent a paragraph-long feat on it rather than multiple pages of spells and class abilities for a dedicated class or subclass.
 

Remove ads

Top