Cordwainer Fish
Imp. Int. Scout Svc. (Dishon. Ret.)
"One man's 'magic' is another man's engineering. 'Supernatural' is a null word." - Lazarus Long
Is It Magic?
Baron Opal II
Hero
Magic is understanding of alternative processes and occasional bargaining with other intelligences.
Truly, it depends on how you want to define magic and its degree within the rules and your milieu. For me, there are several gradiations of "weird", some magical and some not. Some are super-science, some not.
Define "alternative". I mean, if I go next door to my electrical engineer friend, who knows how to repair computers far better than I, and I offer him pizza to fix my laptop, is that magic?
What's the difference between magic and super-science? How is bargaining with a demon different from bargaining with an alien from the planet Gotropos VI?
Tonguez
A suffusion of yellow
this is the Riddle of Steel
essentially this indeed is what magic is, African iron smelting involved both technical skill and propitiation of supernatural forces. Even today, real world carvers will talk about working with the Essence or Nature of the Wood or Stone to nring out the forms that are already there.
Its only 19th century svientific materialsm that tells us that technology and magic are distinct.
Tomas Aquinas defined supernatural as the secondary acts of God whereas Preternatural events were caused by the actions of created beings (including humans, demons and spirits). Newton looks to the divine order of the Pantokrator/Divine Providence.
DnD magic is a weird artifact of post industrial materialism but in the prehistory of DnD worlds
no doubt proto-Dwarves had to deal with earth and fire elementals to learn smelting, and then techniques to tame forge spirits and transmute raw ores, which others saw as magic but which the Iron Smiths developed as an Art.
Perhaps as these wild spirits were tamed and eventually domesticated their nature changed to conform to the Smiths Art - the Iron monger was now able to manipulate the material form of fire and iron without needing to tame the spirits, magic become civilised and systematic with a dualistic split between wild spirit and material art - at a philosophical level the split is divine/arcane. Eventually you get the post-industrial materialism of Arcane magic along with the older remnants of wild Scorcery, divine clergy and warlock propituation of greater Powers
No, it is not only that, says the physicist.
No doubt? I have doubt.
Because... why? Are dwarves stupid? They can't interact with their environment on their own and figure things out on their own? The only way they can do anything new in the world is if someone tells them?
Baron Opal II
Hero
Well, no. Of course not. I think one of us has lost track of the conversation. Read the bolded part again.
If you are really interested in the answer here, I am more than happy to have this discussion with you. We can discuss my levels of Mundane --> Uncanny --> Preternatural --> Supernatural, how it relates to the classes, abilities, and milieu. Where I found ideas, the differences between magic and super science, &c.
But, while I am happy to explain, and even discuss, I am not going to debate my conclusions. You have already lost. I have formed them over decades of reading a multiplicity of topics, including how various real world societies interacted with the unseen world. I am certainly open to new ideas and may modify or change some of the background of my milieu. But, sure as anything, I am not just going to throw it away because of some facile snit you seem to be in. The actual existence of supernatural phenomenon is irrelevant.
A question about the degree of magic in a setting came up, about a localized phenomenon. Your tone and presentation of point make you look like you're spoiling for a fight. I'm not interested.
No. I have not lost track. I'm just noting that the answers given are including hefty assumptions that aren't being mentioned.
I'm not trying to debate conclusions. I am pointing out that things like "alternative" and "other intelligences" are poorly specified.
There is a tendency to be circular here - like, "it is magic because you call on demons to learn it". I ask, "What's a demon?" and the answer is, "Well, it is a magical being..." and we find the answer turns out self-referential.
So, I ask things like, "What's the difference between an alien and a demon for these purposes?" They are both "other intelligences".
Ah. You are under the misapprehension that I am trying to win? Sorry. I'm not.
I am spoiling for non-self-referential clarity.
Baron Opal II
Hero
Excellent! I am all for discussion. My apologies for apparently misinterpreting your posts.
Give me a moment.
GMMichael
Guide of Modos
I'm not sure either of you has discussed the OP for a bit, now. Can I get a mod in here? Oh. Um...
Tonguez
A suffusion of yellow
I said Dwarfs had to Deal with elementals and thus learned new techniques and skills not that the Elementals told them how to do it. For instance Hawks in Australia have been observed carrying burning sticks and actively helping to spread bush fires in order to herd prey - they have learned to Deal with fire. Hominids probaby had to deal with wild fires from lightning strikes and lava flows too eventually learning to control them.
proto-Dwarfs probably had to deal with similar wild magma flows but those dwarfs also live in worlds where those Wildfires might be intelligent and are often malicious. They learn to Deal with those sentient fires developing ways to keep the malicious ones at bay, or taming them and bending them to their will. Even real world superstitions and magic come from similar deals - knocking on wood to invoke wood spirits, hanging horseshoes above the door too keep out fey, tossing runes and chanting spells - all ways of Dealing with the world via magic.
Eventually the proto-dwarfs Art changes the nature of the world, the fire becomes tamed in the forge, horseshoes work to keep fey away and wizards develop formulaic expressions that get physical results
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