Is It Magic?

[Baron Opal II]

Give me a moment.

Well, that was an awful, no-good, terrible day.

What's the difference between magic and super-science? How is bargaining with a demon different from bargaining with an alien from the planet Gotropos VI?

Magic is using chaos to shape the world according to your will.
Technology is using law to shape the world according to your will.

Law provides us with the natural laws. Through experimentation we can figure out how to exploit systems to do work for us. For example, channeling water over a wheel, turning an axle, performing some work. Chaos provides us with randomness and disruptive change. Through experimentation we can figure out how to change systems to do work for us. With the previous example, instead of water we animate some skeletons to turn the wheel. There are rules to the manipulation of chaos, but a person of sufficient will can sometime override them. Regardless of the amount of will a person has, they can not change natural law. Because of this there are some things that can be achieved with magic that can not be achieved by technology, and vice versa.

When communicating with various entities, it might seem at first that calling B'Melekek of Gotropos IV on the holovid and summoning the Tailor in Scales of the Azurine Drifts in a special circle are the same despite superficial differences. The first principle difference is that B'Melekek is a physical being and the Tailor is spiritual. B'Melekek has a physical body, a metabolism requiring food or sustenance of some manner, and will ultimately die from trauma or old age. The Tailor is a spiritual being. Their substance is ultimately immaterial and only minimally affected by physical means or forces. When summoned the magic provides a physical body for the Tailor, which takes an appearance based on the Tailor's personality. This body is incomplete; there are sufficient muscles, bones, integument, &c. for the Tailor to productively interact with others. But, it requires no physical sustenance, and besides a primitive lungs and GI track, it has no organs besides a heart which is there for mythic reasons.

But, if you are looking for lost treasure and they both have a map, is there still a difference? Aside from the means of contact, still the answer would be yes in the area of payment and enforcement. If you try to cheat the Tailor, you might find yourself in a summoning circle specially made for you. If you cheat B'Melekek, they're not able to instantly affect you three systems away, but you will have some bounty hunters sent after you.

Another difference between magic and technology is ease of use. You need an engineer to design and build a rifle*, you need a wizard to design and build a wand of magic missiles. Once the engineer has the raw materials and tools, they can make the rifle whenever they wish. The wizard has to rely on a number of astrological correspondences, special woods known for their affinity for weaponry, and perhaps a sacrifice to Sagittarius for permission and aid in the endeavor. Whatever makes the gathering, infusion, and stabilization of chaos into this item. Once the item is made they can use it. The engineer can then give the plans and the rifle itself to someone else and they can build it or use it. Since the rifle relies on natural law, anyone can use it. For the wand, only someone at least minimally proficient in the managing of chaos can harness the ability. Technology allows for mass production, magic is by necessity artisinal.

Going back to the OP, a lever opening a cleverly disguised portion of the wall is to me obviously an application of law, of technology. It might require some maintenance, but for narrative purposes everything looking worn or making creaking noises (if the mechanism would be percieved) when it activates would be enough.

Later, super science vs. high magic.

*Not wholly, but work with me for a bit.

 

[aramis erak]

So, if you don't have natural philosophers, scientists and/or engineers... everything is magic! Willow bark tea? Magic! Rain falling in regular seasons? Magic!

Basically, magic is ignorance. We can work with that.

The corollary to Asimov's Law: Any sufficiently systematic magic is indistinguishable from technology.

Insofar as you can find a radio station without knowing how radios work, and drive a car without knowing anything about compression ratios, yes.

But try to build a radio, or a car, or even repair one, without that understanding, and see what happens.

I did just that when I was 7. It worked just fine. I just had to follow the instructions in the kit.
I didn't need to know how the crystal worked, nor the way transistors worked. When I couldn't get it loud enough, I just tried adding a second battery...

AM radio is really simple.
Likewise, no knowledge of how my calculator works was needed to build it from the kit.

The engineers totally understand the processes they work with. Those patents represent understanding of processes. And, don't wave around patents as if they are an achievement if you aren't also going to note published papers on the scientists side.

I've known a number of engineers. Grown up with way too many around; my dad's dress greens and dress blues had castles on the buttons¹. My dad didn't have a firm grip on all the chemicals he used, despite a masters in ChemE. And that lack of general knowledge in the field, both his, and the chemE types who developed it, over the effects of agent orange lead to him not having protective gear while supervising it's mixing, loading and use, leading to him getting Parkinsons. it was tuned by chemists who didn't have full understanding. (If they had full understanding, they'd probably not have released it for widespread use in the 'Nam war.)

The last 10 years of his life were drastically decreased in quality because of that lack of knowledge.

----
¹: The distinction for those commissioned into the US Army Corps of Engineers.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Re: “magic masonry”

I used to have a book on some engineering tricks from the ancient (mostly Egyptian/Greek/Roman) world that were considered magic…by those not in on the joke.

I remember one was an automatic door to a temple, triggered by pressure.

Another involved a hidden squadron of soldiers who would emerge from a pool/fountain, after hiding in a domed structure under the water. As I recall, bellows may have been used to supply air to the hidden warriors.

 

[James Gasik]

The corollary to Asimov's Law: Any sufficiently systematic magic is indistinguishable from technology.

I did just that when I was 7. It worked just fine. I just had to follow the instructions in the kit.
I didn't need to know how the crystal worked, nor the way transistors worked. When I couldn't get it loud enough, I just tried adding a second battery...

AM radio is really simple.
Likewise, no knowledge of how my calculator works was needed to build it from the kit.

I've known a number of engineers. Grown up with way too many around; my dad's dress greens and dress blues had castles on the buttons¹. My dad didn't have a firm grip on all the chemicals he used, despite a masters in ChemE. And that lack of general knowledge in the field, both his, and the chemE types who developed it, over the effects of agent orange lead to him not having protective gear while supervising it's mixing, loading and use, leading to him getting Parkinsons. it was tuned by chemists who didn't have full understanding. (If they had full understanding, they'd probably not have released it for widespread use in the 'Nam war.)

The last 10 years of his life were drastically decreased in quality because of that lack of knowledge.

----
¹: The distinction for those commissioned into the US Army Corps of Engineers.

I think you meant Clarke's Third Law. Asimov's Laws deal with artificial intelligences.

 

[GMMichael]

Lara Croft pulls a dagger from its ceremonial placeholder in an underground shrine. That's enough to set the whole shrine crumbling. The implication is that a supernatural power has been upset. . .

But how many GMs add the crumbling shrine to their campaigns, adding the effect, but neglecting the supernatural cause? Do lazy media writers set a bad example for aspiring GMs?

 

[The Shadow]

Define "supernatural" in a way that does not use the word "magic" or one of its synonyms.

For our purposes here, "beyond what can be explained by physical laws in the material universe." (In a more rigorous setting, I would be more careful to distinguish between 'supernatural' and 'preternatural', but for purposes of defining magic this will do.)

So, magic is bringing about effects via supernatural means. What would that look like?

It might come by leveraging spiritual forces following their own laws, distinct from the material ones. This would be "arcane" magic. Key here is that you're not interacting with those forces as if they're people.

It might mean entreating or otherwise inducing a spiritual being to cause the effect for you. This would be "divine" magic or something similar if you're purely asking. If you're engaging in a bit of coercion and/or trading favors, that's basically how some shamanic traditions work. If you're outright enslaving spirits, that starts to get into theurgy or goietia.

Now, many people would argue (including me, though I won't in this thread) that ordinary human cognition can't be entirely explained by physical processes, and so is minimally "supernatural". Taking that as given for the moment, if it's possible to make that a little less minimal somehow - such that you can operate on the spiritual plane yourself apart from ordinary human capabilities - that would basically be "psionics".

One thing that spelling this out has done is made me realize that (fantasy) psionics probably makes you very interesting to spirits, both for good and for ill. It might even make one vulnerable to things that normally only affect pure spirits.

 

[Umbran]

For our purposes here, "beyond what can be explained by physical laws in the material universe." (In a more rigorous setting, I would be more careful to distinguish between 'supernatural' and 'preternatural', but for purposes of defining magic this will do.)

When we say, "beyond what can be explained by physical laws in the material universe," there are still a couple of points of question:

Is that "beyond what we can currently explain by physical laws" or "beyond what can be explained, even in principle"?

If the first, then "magic" is a function of a person's understanding of the physical laws. Most people today do not understand the operating principles of semiconductors, so today, modern electronics are supernatural or magic to most people, and technology only to a few. This is back to the "magic = ignorance" model.

If the latter, well, that's an interesting space to unpack.

As a physicist, I could get a bit picky on the distinction of "material universe", but we can leave that for the moment.

 

[The Shadow]

When we say, "beyond what can be explained by physical laws in the material universe," there are still a couple of points of question:

Is that "beyond what we can currently explain by physical laws" or "beyond what can be explained, even in principle"?

Excellent point, I meant the latter.

As a physicist, I could get a bit picky on the distinction of "material universe", but we can leave that for the moment.

I've got degrees in chemistry and physics myself, and yeah, there are definitely reams of subtlety here I'm leaving out! I mean, we're defining magic here.

 

[The Shadow]

If you're engaging in a bit of coercion and/or trading favors, that's basically how some shamanic traditions work.

Incidentally, I was in a Fate Core campaign recently in which all magic was done by interacting with spirits.

The great divide between practitioners was which social skill their magic was based on: Rapport meant that you trade favors and keep up good relations; Provoke meant that you compel spirits to do your will; and Deceive meant that you trick them into doing what you want. Needless to say, spirits reacted most favorably to the Rapport guys!

We had all three kinds in our group, and it made for some interesting dynamics! The Rapport guy thought the other two were just unspeakably rude and worried his reputation among spirits would suffer by association; while they thought he was painfully naive.