Is It Magic?

GMMichael

Guide of Modos
52 yr old Ozzy bushmen catching arrows
Please may all archers targeting me use only 1/4 draw.

I'd be very interested to see a YouToob of a sliding rock secret door. Not made with plaster in Hollywood (although, could medieval artisans make a decent-looking plaster rock door?).
 

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Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Not made with plaster in Hollywood (although, could medieval artisans make a decent-looking plaster rock door?).

Would concrete do?

Honestly, in the OP, I don't understand why magic is invoked for the door, when clever stonemasonry and artifice with weights and gears is a reasonable explanation.
 
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James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
There is a lot in fantasy, especially D&D, that is handwaved away. Anything that seems anachronistic or defies physical laws as we understand them is "magic".

Even things that are explicitly stated to be magic rarely have any explanation as to how/why the feat was accomplished, beyond "a Wizard did it...probably", or "an act of the Gods".

I remember in an adventure encountering a waterfall frozen in time, presenting an impenetrable barrier akin to a wall of force. As a much less experienced player, I assumed that the means by which this was accomplished were naturally part of the game's lore/rules, but after making a few checks, the DM shrugged and said "uh, an artifact was used".

It's probably best not to scrutinize these idiosyncrasies of the game too much. If you stare at the window dressing for awhile, you might realize that it's a matte painting or a mass of pixels, and maybe that takes the sense of wonder out of the proceedings.

It is frustrating to a point that precious few people who live in a D&D world are asking the kinds of serious questions about how their world works that real-world scientists have done for centuries, and that if your character wanted to to delve into this sort of thing, there is no set path. Often, we're told magic has laws it must abide by, but beyond player spells and abilities, the idea of laws goes right out the window if it makes for a cool adventure.

Unfortunately, at some level, you just have to shut your brain off and enjoy the game. Even if you could find a true answer to how dragons fly or breathe various forms of energy at people, it probably wouldn't help you very much, because figuring out how to warp or prevent these abilities, or emulate them yourself, would probably toss ideas like game balance out the window.

The game doesn't currently make a distinction between "weird natural phenomenon", "beyond human abilities", "outright violations of physical laws", and "good ol' spells", even when that would be useful to have. So like anything else, if there is an answer, it's up to the DM.

Even in our world, we can encounter things the ancients built and ask ourselves "how was that done? could we even do that with our current technology?". That doesn't necessarily mean magic (or aliens!) was involved. It's just a mystery, and sometimes there doesn't need to be an answer- just knowing such mysteries exist might make the world seem a more wonderful place.
 

I'm leaning toward "supernatural events caused by people or animals," but anything supernatural is either behind the magic-side of the line, or sitting on it.

Uncanny = magic, at least in terms of Uncanny X-men. If I were playing an archer, and my target kept chopping my arrows out of the air, I'd expect some magic (or supernatural being) to be involved.
i mean...okay, but idk how useful of a definition of magic this really is. "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" comes to mind.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
I'm leaning toward "supernatural events caused by people or animals," but anything supernatural is either behind the magic-side of the line, or sitting on it.

Define "supernatural" in a way that does not use the word "magic" or one of its synonyms.
 

aco175

Legend
I keep picturing the Hobbit movie when they finally get the key in the door and push it open. Suddenly the perfect wall of stone opened in a perfect rectangle. Was that magic or good dwarf engineering?

Would all those things be called miracles in a low-magic game?
 

GMMichael

Guide of Modos
Honestly, in the OP, I don't understand why magic is invoked for the door, when clever stonemasonry and artifice with weights and gears is a reasonable explanation.
Well, that's why we have to ask, "is it magic?" If it's not, why would someone employ an architect, a small team of miners, and maybe a playwright for weeks on end to design the device, carve it out of solid stone (not just the door, but the space needed for the mechanisms and the door-storage once it's open, as well as the pulleys needed to reach the lever), and then dress the whole area as though it never happened? Assuming, of course, that the services of a magician are or have been at some point available.

i mean...okay, but idk how useful of a definition of magic this really is. "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" comes to mind.

Define "supernatural" in a way that does not use the word "magic" or one of its synonyms.
If defining "magic" is a sticking point, this is probably not the thread for you.

I keep picturing the Hobbit movie when they finally get the key in the door and push it open. Suddenly the perfect wall of stone opened in a perfect rectangle. Was that magic or good dwarf engineering?

Would all those things be called miracles in a low-magic game?
Hiding a keyhole so that once a year (?), only moonlight illuminates its position in the door, but daylight doesn't? Sounds like magic to me. I'm sure those dwarf-masons were good, but no-one's that good. Miracles? Depends on the setting, I guess.

Is it magic? A knight uses a special maneuver to jump several times his height (off the screen), and float in the air for a bit before landing on his opponent, lance-first to cause extra damage. Does the shape of the armor somehow grant flight? Is there some secret to jumping that his order knows that's unknown to the general public? These "dragoons" aren't known to be magical, but what other explanation is there?
 

aramis erak

Legend
Define "supernatural" in a way that does not use the word "magic" or one of its synonyms.
"Can not be explained using processes known to and broadly accepted by Natural Philosophers/Scientists and/or engineers."

Note that the underlying "why does the process work?" isn't in the definition. My engineer friends are very clear that one need not have any knowledge of why a process works to use and even tune a process. The few working science researchers I've known completely disagree with the Engineers... but those researchers don't own any patents, and the engineers do...
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
"Can not be explained using processes known to and broadly accepted by Natural Philosophers/Scientists and/or engineers."

So, if you don't have natural philosophers, scientists and/or engineers... everything is magic! Willow bark tea? Magic! Rain falling in regular seasons? Magic!

Basically, magic is ignorance. We can work with that.

Note that the underlying "why does the process work?" isn't in the definition. My engineer friends are very clear that one need not have any knowledge of why a process works to use and even tune a process. The few working science researchers I've known completely disagree with the Engineers... but those researchers don't own any patents, and the engineers do...

Insofar as you can find a radio station without knowing how radios work, and drive a car without knowing anything about compression ratios, yes.

But try to build a radio, or a car, or even repair one, without that understanding, and see what happens.

The engineers totally understand the processes they work with. Those patents represent understanding of processes. And, don't wave around patents as if they are an achievement if you aren't also going to note published papers on the scientists side.
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
Hiding a keyhole so that once a year (?), only moonlight illuminates its position in the door, but daylight doesn't? Sounds like magic to me. I'm sure those dwarf-masons were good, but no-one's that good. Miracles? Depends on the setting, I guess.
Depends on what you mean by magic. I’m reminded of another Tolkien reference when various Hobbits were asking about elf magic and were told by the elves they didn’t know what they meant for it was simply the elven way of making things whether cloaks or rope. Dwarven masonry or elven magic in fantasy RPG can fit the same mode - natural to them, magical to anyone else.
 

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