Cordwainer Fish
Imp. Int. Scout Svc. (Dishon. Ret.)
"One man's 'magic' is another man's engineering. 'Supernatural' is a null word." - Lazarus Long
Magic is understanding of alternative processes and occasional bargaining with other intelligences.Basically, magic is ignorance. We can work with that.
Magic is understanding of alternative processes and occasional bargaining with other intelligences.
Truly, it depends on how you want to define magic and its degree within the rules and your milieu. For me, there are several gradiations of "weird", some magical and some not. Some are super-science, some not.
this is the Riddle of SteelSo, if you don't have natural philosophers, scientists and/or engineers... everything is magic! Willow bark tea? Magic! Rain falling in regular seasons? Magic!
Basically, magic is ignorance. We can work with that.
Its only 19th century svientific materialsm that tells us that technology and magic are distinct.
...but in the prehistory of DnD worlds
no doubt proto-Dwarves had to deal with earth and fire elementals to learn smelting
Well, no. Of course not. I think one of us has lost track of the conversation. Read the bolded part again.Define "alternative". I mean, if I go next door to my electrical engineer friend, who knows how to repair computers far better than I, and I offer him pizza to fix my laptop, is that magic?
What's the difference between magic and super-science? How is bargaining with a demon different from bargaining with an alien from the planet Gotropos VI?
If you are really interested in the answer here, I am more than happy to have this discussion with you. We can discuss my levels of Mundane --> Uncanny --> Preternatural --> Supernatural, how it relates to the classes, abilities, and milieu. Where I found ideas, the differences between magic and super science, &c.Truly, it depends on how you want to define magic and its degree within the rules and your milieu. For me, there are several gradiations of "weird", some magical and some not. Some are super-science, some not.
Well, no. Of course not. I think one of us has lost track of the conversation.
But, while I am happy to explain, and even discuss, I am not going to debate my conclusions.
You have already lost.
Your tone and presentation of point make you look like you're spoiling for a fight.
Excellent! I am all for discussion. My apologies for apparently misinterpreting your posts.No. I have not lost track. I'm just noting that the answers given are including hefty assumptions that aren't being mentioned.
I'm not trying to debate conclusions. I am pointing out that things like "alternative" and "other intelligences" are poorly specified.
There is a tendency to be circular here...
I'm not sure either of you has discussed the OP for a bit, now. Can I get a mod in here? Oh. Um...Well, no. Of course not. I think one of us has lost track of the conversation. . .
I said Dwarfs had to Deal with elementals and thus learned new techniques and skills not that the Elementals told them how to do it. For instance Hawks in Australia have been observed carrying burning sticks and actively helping to spread bush fires in order to herd prey - they have learned to Deal with fire. Hominids probaby had to deal with wild fires from lightning strikes and lava flows too eventually learning to control them.No doubt? I have doubt.
Because... why? Are dwarves stupid? They can't interact with their environment on their own and figure things out on their own? The only way they can do anything new in the world is if someone tells them?