Is it OK to distribute others' OGC for free?

[Cergorach]

Hmm... The definition of ethical

Being in accordance with the accepted principles of right and wrong that govern the conduct of a profession.

So whether it's ethical or not should be polled within the OGC user community. A poll might be usefull.

Redistributing OGC verbatim for free is frowned upon, where as redistributing OGC verbatim for a fee is evidentily not frowned upon. There are a lot of print publishers that have made OGC compilations (Green Ronin and Mongoose come to mind, but surely there are others).

Why would it be unethical to distribute it for free and not for a fee?

 

[Yair]

Hmm... The definition of ethical

Hmm, strange. Mine says

Ethic Eth"ic, Ethical Eth"ic*al, a. L. ethicus, Gr. ?, fr.
? custom, usage, character, dwelling; akin to ? custom, Goth.
sidus, G. sitte, Skr. svadh?, prob. orig., one's own doing;
sva self + dh? to set: cf. F. 'ethique. See So, Do.
Of, or belonging to, morals; treating of the moral feelings
or duties; containing percepts of morality; moral; as, ethic
discourses or epistles; an ethical system; ethical
philosophy.

and

Moral Mor"al, a. F., fr. It. moralis, fr. mos, moris, manner,
custom, habit, way of life, conduct.
1. Relating to duty or obligation; pertaining to those
intentions and actions of which right and wrong, virtue
and vice, are predicated, or to the rules by which such
intentions and actions ought to be directed; relating to
the practice, manners, or conduct of men as social beings
in relation to each other, as respects right and wrong, so
far as they are properly subject to rules.

Keep at the least within the compass of moral
actions, which have in them vice or virtue.
--Hooker.

Mankind is broken loose from moral bands. --Dryden.

She had wandered without rule or guidance in a moral
wilderness. --Hawthorne.

2. Conformed to accepted rules of right; acting in conformity
with such rules; virtuous; just; as, a moral man. Used
sometimes in distinction from religious; as, a moral
rather than a religious life.

The wiser and more moral part of mankind. --Sir M.
Hale.

3. Capable of right and wrong action or of being governed by
a sense of right; subject to the law of duty.

A moral agent is a being capable of those actions
that have a moral quality, and which can properly be
denominated good or evil in a moral sense. --J.
Edwards.

4. Acting upon or through one's moral nature or sense of
right, or suited to act in such a manner; as, a moral
arguments; moral considerations. Sometimes opposed to
material and physical; as, moral pressure or support.

5. Supported by reason or probability; practically
sufficient; -- opposed to legal or demonstrable; as, a
moral evidence; a moral certainty.

6. Serving to teach or convey a moral; as, a moral lesson;
moral tales.

It seems your definition subscribes to a relativistic morality (2); I personaly subscribe to a personal morality (4).
This is one of the reasons I don't like moral arguments anymore - I'm not even sure what they are all about ...

Redistributing OGC verbatim for free is frowned upon, where as redistributing OGC verbatim for a fee is evidentily not frowned upon. There are a lot of print publishers that have made OGC compilations (Green Ronin and Mongoose come to mind, but surely there are others).

Why would it be unethical to distribute it for free and not for a fee?

To be fair, most of such compilations include only portions of other works, new editing and "updating" the work (for 3.5, to mesh with other parts of the compilation, and so on), and/or are based on OGC *freely* distributed by the *original publisher*. And these too are sometimes frowned upon, it is just that the publishers are more careful not to frown in public at other publishers, as they think it would seem unprofessional. But I've read between the lines of a few publisher's posts, and I could see frowning. Really.

Personally, I'm not frowning on them or on you. I *like* free OGC, thank you (literally, Cergorach, thank you!), but it is not fair to compare your situation with theirs. I understand your're feeling wronged here, but honestly IMHO the UA SRD and the publisher projects (that I am aware of) are not equivalent. It could be that I'm just misinformed.

 

[philreed]

Why would it be unethical to distribute it for free and not for a fee?

I don't think it's a question of ethics. I think the question is:

Is it good for the game industry to release collections of OGC for free?


Let's take a hypothetical (or two).


WotC releases Unearthed Arcana. One year later, well-meaning fans post the material as OGC for free. At that time, WotC still has 50,000 copies of the UA hardcover for sale. Let us assume that monthly sales of UA have dropped to 4,000 and are stable. So in 1 year WotC will sell out of UA.

But what happens if the free OGC drops their monthly sales to 3,000? We're now looking at over 16 months before sellout. That's 4 more months that the products take up space in the warehouse. A less drastic effect, say 3,500/month, requires just over 14 months to clear out the inventory.

Hmmm. D&D sales are slowing. Time to drop some staff and cut back a little on the schedule. Maybe just fire two employees and drop 1 D&D book/year from the schedule.

A little deeper digging uncovers the free UA online. Well, hell. That's the last time we do an OGC product.



Let's now look at a smaller company. Bastion or Green Ronin make excellent examples since both have lots of 100% OGC products and are respected by fans.

Let's say a hypothetical product released at the same time as UA included 100% open game content. After one year of sales, someone releases the material free online. At this point, we can safely assume that monthly sales of that product are around 75-100/month (and this may be a little high). We'll go with 100 for simplicity. We'll also assume that the publisher saw the market trends and only printed 2,500 copies and now have 1,200 copies to sell.

So what happens to monthly sales? If we assume that only 10% of the people that would download the UA SRD will download this one monthly sales of this hypothetical product drop to somewhere between 0 and 50 copies. At this rate, it will take somewhere between 2 years and infinity to clear the product out of the warehouse. 2 years? Damn, that's a problem. Better print fewer copies of the next title.

Oh no. We're printing less than 2,000 of a new release? Might be time to get rid of some staff . . . might even be time for a new job. It's certainly time to stop doing products that are 100% OGC.



Granted, these are extreme examples. But they're not all that far-fetched. To be honest, the free posting of OGC from a book could close down a company for good.


Here's an example from my own PDF sales. Many months ago an e-mail came in praising my PDFs and saying how useful they were in games. And when would more of them be free on Kazaa?

Those aren't free PDFs, I pointed out.

I know. But they're free on Kazaa and it only hurts the corporations and not people to download stuff. I don't want to give corporations money so I'll wait for more of your PDFs to be free on Kazaa.


This is the only time it's ever happened to me. But . . . what the hell? Corporation? Hello, it's me here.

And I need to pay my rent.

 

[Cergorach]

hundreds of bytes deleted due to moralistic blaber that neither of us really wants to deal with ;-)

Personally, I'm not frowning on them or on you. I *like* free OGC, thank you (literally, Cergorach, thank you!), but it is not fair to compare your situation with theirs. I understand your're feeling wronged here, but honestly IMHO the UA SRD and the publisher projects (that I am aware of) are not equivalent. It could be that I'm just misinformed.

I'm not feeling particulary wronged here, i just find it curious that certain publishers on one hand ask (demand?) that their OGC isn't redistributed, but on the other hand they do publish verbatim OGC from other publishers. Green Ronin is a good example, on one hand the published three books containing all arcane and divine spells and magic items from the SRD, and a couple of other books. On the other hand they ask us not to redistribute their OGC.

Sorry GR, i really like you guys, but i'm going to redistribute your OGC. The one thing i am willing to do is wait a reasonable period (6 months to a year) before redistributing your OGC. The same goes for all other publishers. Depending on how much is designated OGC and how clearly it is designated i will redistribute it anywhere from 14 days before publication to years after publication (if i redistribute th OGC 14 days before publication your real basterd and i got lucky ;-)

I short, i don't particulary care if others find me a fiend or a saint...

 

[Yair]

I don't think it's a question of ethics. I think the question is:
Is it good for the game industry to release collections of OGC for free?.

I agree, except I'd change "game industry" to "game community". Sorry, but as much as I appreciate your work (and I do), what I care about is my gaming and not any industry.

[

Let's take a hypothetical (or two).... [snip a lot]

Here's an example from my own PDF sales. Many months ago an e-mail came in praising my PDFs and saying how useful they were in games. And when would more of them be free on Kazaa?

Those aren't free PDFs, I pointed out.

I know. But they're free on Kazaa and it only hurts the corporations and not people to download stuff. I don't want to give corporations money so I'll wait for more of your PDFs to be free on Kazaa.

Lol! If it wasn't costing you money, I'm sure you'll be loling too...

The underlying premise in your arguments is that free OGC undermines sell of products. While I think this is true for new, "shiny", products, I am not sure it is for older procucts. I am frankly suprised by your figures; it was my understanding that most sales are within the first few months of release, and that after that the product often just barely covers its room and board, if your're lucky. Obviously, you have more knowledge in the matter than I do.

Edited for minor reservation.

 

[Yair]

Sorry GR, i really like you guys, but i'm going to redistribute your OGC. The one thing i am willing to do is wait a reasonable period (6 months to a year) before redistributing your OGC. The same goes for all other publishers. Depending on how much is designated OGC and how clearly it is designated i will redistribute it anywhere from 14 days before publication to years after publication (if i redistribute th OGC 14 days before publication your real basterd and i got lucky ;-)

I short, i don't particulary care if others find me a fiend or a saint...

That's pretty ambitious! Entering in all of the published OGC is a huge undertaking. If you need help, I'll be willing to do what little I can.

I was gonna write more, but I basically agree with you on the redistribution stuff, so I won't.

 

[philreed]

The underlying premise in your arguments is that free OGC undermines sell of products.

Right. And, more importantly, devalues the work.

While I think this is true for new, "shiny", products, I am not sure it is for older procucts. I am frankly suprised by your figures; it was my understanding that most sales are within the first few months of release, and that after that the product often just barely covers its room and board, if your're lucky. Obviously, you have more knowledge in the matter than I do.

Well, my numbers were probably generous on the monthly sales side of things. I know a lot of products sell between 0 and 20 copies/month after 6 months of release. Inventory levels, on the other hand, probably aren't too far off. (Except for the WotC one -- entirely fictitious since I've never seen their sales numbers.) I know many, many people with inventory supplies that should last them 20+ years.

But if 0-20 copies/month is more likely, how much damage does freely available OGC do to those sales?

I'd be very curious to hear the number of times the SRD has been downloaded at the WotC site.

 

[Cergorach]

I don't think it's a question of ethics. I think the question is:
Is it good for the game industry to release collections of OGC for free?

The question then also becomes do the current publishers equal the game industry?

Let's take a hypothetical (or two).

WotC releases Unearthed Arcana. One year later, well-meaning fans post the material as OGC for free. At that time, WotC still has 50,000 copies of the UA hardcover for sale. Let us assume that monthly sales of UA have dropped to 4,000 and are stable. So in 1 year WotC will sell out of UA.

But what happens if the free OGC drops their monthly sales to 3,000? We're now looking at over 16 months before sellout. That's 4 more months that the products take up space in the warehouse. A less drastic effect, say 3,500/month, requires just over 14 months to clear out the inventory.

Hmmm. D&D sales are slowing. Time to drop some staff and cut back a little on the schedule. Maybe just fire two employees and drop 1 D&D book/year from the schedule.

A little deeper digging uncovers the free UA online. Well, hell. That's the last time we do an OGC product.

Well that's one possibility, one that i find disappointing, but acceptable. Another is that the renewed interest in the product, thru the OGC, might invigorate a product. Both are pssibilities, i highly doubt we'll ever see dependable report on this, only a lot of speculation (just as with the whole 'piracy' issue).

Let's now look at a smaller company. Bastion or Green Ronin make excellent examples since both have lots of 100% OGC products and are respected by fans.

Let's say a hypothetical product released at the same time as UA included 100% open game content. After one year of sales, someone releases the material free online. At this point, we can safely assume that monthly sales of that product are around 75-100/month (and this may be a little high). We'll go with 100 for simplicity. We'll also assume that the publisher saw the market trends and only printed 2,500 copies and now have 1,200 copies to sell.

So what happens to monthly sales? If we assume that only 10% of the people that would download the UA SRD will download this one monthly sales of this hypothetical product drop to somewhere between 0 and 50 copies. At this rate, it will take somewhere between 2 years and infinity to clear the product out of the warehouse. 2 years? Damn, that's a problem. Better print fewer copies of the next title.

Oh no. We're printing less than 2,000 of a new release? Might be time to get rid of some staff . . . might even be time for a new job. It's certainly time to stop doing products that are 100% OGC.

Granted, these are extreme examples. But they're not all that far-fetched. To be honest, the free posting of OGC from a book could close down a company for good.

Someone said, that's the bed you made, now sleep in it, i like that (also for myself). These are the consequences of your actions.

I am a healthy believer of voting with my wallet. If i don't like a product, i don't buy it, if i like it, i try to buy it. When i release regurgetated OGC, i deposit the responsibilty with the publisher (made he a good product in the first place) and the consumer (did he find the OGC impressive enough to actually buy the rest of the product).

Here's an example from my own PDF sales. Many months ago an e-mail came in praising my PDFs and saying how useful they were in games. And when would more of them be free on Kazaa?

Those aren't free PDFs, I pointed out.

I know. But they're free on Kazaa and it only hurts the corporations and not people to download stuff. I don't want to give corporations money so I'll wait for more of your PDFs to be free on Kazaa.

This is the only time it's ever happened to me. But . . . what the hell? Corporation? Hello, it's me here.

And I need to pay my rent.

LOL! I find that so funny and sad at the same time. On one hand i can understand this when it involves big music or movie companies, maybe even companies like WotC or WW, but not one man operations! I actually bought some of your pdfs (space ships) because i liked the sound of them, not because i needed them (i currently don't run a future game, nor do i see an oppertunity to run one in the next decade). If i want to see more kewl stuff i need to support those who make it financially, others should do the same. I believe that making OGC available for free online is only going to make the game better.

ps. That reminds me of a DorkTower comic about a RPG that went belly up, everyne had a copy (copied illegally of course).

 

[Yair]

Inventory levels, on the other hand, probably aren't too far off... I know many, many people with inventory supplies that should last them 20+ years.

I find this pretty amazing. I am certainly not expecting to be making profit from work I did 20 years ago (of course, I was a baby then ).

But if 0-20 copies/month is more likely, how much damage does freely available OGC do to those sales?

I guess assesing this is the crux of the problem.

I'd be very curious to hear the number of times the SRD has been downloaded at the WotC site.

I don't think this is a good measure of anything, and that shows the problematic aspect of assessing the "devaluing" of prior work by free redistribution. Obviously the 3.0 and 3.5 PHBs sold very well despite the (large, supposedly) download numbers. Now, did the SRD increase or decrease these sales? I personally believe Ryan Dancey's (sp?) hype, and think it aided sales overall. But I don't think even on this bestseller that any realy evidence exists either way.
The problem is not easier when considering other works. Let me try to quantify what I think might be the situation, however, based on nothing but gut feelings:

I think essentially the free distribution (whether by Kazaa or SRDs) aids products that serve as frequent reference books, and those that rely on graphics. The kind of books a player wants to have a good-quality book of to use as reference, or that are prohibitly expensive and often of low quality when printed out.
I believe the products that suffer the most from free distribution are those used haphazardly, occasionally, and/or electronically. Products that rely on mechancis and open fluff (magic item books, class books) are more at risk from SRDs than those relying mostly on closed content (such as campaign settings). (That puts many of your products in a bad place, I am afraid, philreed.) Fortunately, there are little warehousing costs for electronic products, so that should diminish the lost income, but it is still lost income.

For the first kind of product, I think an SRD will actually be benefitial and see no harm whatsoever in distributing one.
For the latter kinds of products, SRDs are bad news for the publisher. The SRD essentially means the publisher will make less money (in the long run) from any published book, lowering his income.
Hmm. I think I just talked myself out of supporting SRDs for some products...

Edited for grammer. Oh my.

 

[philreed]

I believe the products that suffer the most from free distribution are those used haphazardly, occasionally, and/or electronically. Products that rely on mechancis and open fluff (magic item books, class books) are more at risk from SRDs than those relying mostly on closed content (such as campaign settings). (That puts many of your products in a bad place, I am afraid, philreed.) Fortunately, there are little warehousing costs for electronic products, so that should diminish the lost income, but it is still lost income.

Lost income is lost income, though. And, for me, lost income from PDF sales -- no matter how small a loss -- could push me back to corporate America. And if I have to take a day job my PDF releases will drop significantly and, over time, may vanish completely.

And I'm not the only person in this position.

So the question is:

Would you rather see lots of OGC collected and provided for free or would you like to see the creators working on RPG products continue to work on those products?