D&D (2024) Is it possible to balance the six abilities?

[Yaarel]

DEX (attack): STR (save to avoid), CON (save to withstand)
CHA (DC): INT (save to avoid), WIS (save to withstand)

Here is a closer look at the mechanical benefits to balance the DSC-CIW ('deskew') permutation. Note, the listed benefits are from greatest to least. Example, for DEX, the Attack bonus is huge, then Stealth is solidly useful, then Sleight is situationally good especially when to pick locks and to do other actions that require fine motor skills.

	Attack/DC	Save/AC (Avoid)	Save/AC (Withstand)
Physical Ability	DEXTERITY • Physical Attack. • Stealth. • Sleight.	STRENGTH • Reflex save. • AC Light Armor. • Physical Damage if certain weapons. • Unarmed Strike. • Athletics (gymnastic, jump, balance, so on). • Lifting.	CONSTITUTION • Fortitude save. • Hit points. • AC Heavy Armor.
Mental Ability	CHARISMA • Spell DC. • Magical Weapon Attack (Hexblade, Bladesinger, so on). • Mental Attack. • Persuasion (charm, build trust, debate). • Insight (psychology, empathy, telepathy). • Performance (selfexpression, art, luxury, prestige).	INTELLIGENCE • Perception save (v illusory, hidden, fake). • Initiative. • Search / Spot. • All Knowledge skills. • Deception.	WISDOM • Will save (courage v charm, frighten, dominate). • Concentration save. • Intimidation (courage, frighten, give courage; skullduggery, criminality, policework, streetwise).

In this DSCCIW configuration, as far as I can tell, the three physical abilities seem about equal to each other. Does anyone notice a problem with balance? Strength is sensical and mechanically appealing. Constitution is what it is, but also becomes the prereq for the AC from wearing Heavy Armor.

The mental abilities need work. For a spellcaster Charisma seems solid, for noncasters meh. Generally, players would probably choose between Charisma and Dexterity for the main Attack/DC, then dump the other, so this is an issue. Intelligence is starting to get viable in combat but needs more solid combat benefit. Wisdom looks subpar and needs help.

 

[jgsugden]

Abilities are bigger than a skill. They represent an assemblage of skills. In that sense, an ability bonus is worth a full feat.

Comeliness is too specific to function as ability that organizes various character features. I prefer Comeliness to mean 'superhuman beauty', magical 'elf shine', or unearthly 'angel'. In this context, it might work as a background feat, maybe with advantage to Persuasion checks, or imposing disadvantage to saves against Charm, while in line of sight. There can be three feats, 'Comely', 'Hideous' (magically grotesque to Frighten), and 'Bland' (to avoid notice). Separately, nonmagical beauty might be a Charisma (Performance) check to groom and dress well, and maybe a Constitution (Performance) check to be physically fit. Of course stunning beauty exists, but it seems subjective and difficult to quantify as a metric.

Sanity is redundant. The Wisdom ability = Sanity. A horror genre setting could feature ability damage that reduces Wisdom. This parallels effects that reduce Strength or Intelligence.

Honor is something like Charisma (History), akin to politics.

Your definitive statement of what a game mechanic must be is misplaced. As noted - I used these off and on for a looooooong time.

They worked just fine as I described. And, what I describe from my history of using them is nothing like your assertion of what these must be.

 

[Yaarel]

What if Intelligence gave free spells, to any character? Something like an extra cantrip per INT bonus. So a Fighter who has INT +1 has a cantrip. Or maybe like a slot 1 spell per day. This way, all classes can benefit from Intelligence.

I am wondering if
• Cha: DC
• Int: extra spells
• Wis: magic resistance

 

[Yaarel]

The DSC configuration ("disk") achieves balance among the three physical abilities: Dexterity (Attack), Strength (Reflex), Constitution (Fortitude). I would be surprised if any other configuration of the threesome could achieve mechanical balance while each remained thematically salient.

Importantly, where the abilities of DSC are roughly equal to each other, these three abilities demonstrate how much design space an ability should have. There is a measuring unit. When an ability has too much more mechanically, it needs a nerf. When an ability lacks it needs a boost.


Each of the three mental abilities in CIW ("kyoo") need to mechanically equal the measuring standard that DSC demonstrates.

The physical abilities seem to only have one configuration that can achieve balance, namely DSC. The mental abilities seem to only have two configurations that might work successfully, either WIC or CIW. WIC seems the easier candidate: Wisdom (DC), Intelligence (Perception), Charisma (Will). But CIW seems to adhere better with various D&D traditions: Charisma (DC), Intelligence (Perception), Wisdom (Will).


Intelligence and Perception are so mutually entangling: Search-Investigate, Survival-Nature, reason-intuition, so on. Among the configuration of the three mental abilities, Intelligence locks into place as the Perception save, thus doesnt serve as an ability to establish a spellcasting DC.

However, thematically, both Wisdom and Charisma could serve as the Will save. Thus the other would serve as the spellcasting ability for the DC. One might assume that Charisma is aggressive and supplies the spellcasting DC, while Wisdom serves for the Will save. One way or an other, the D&D traditions have always used Wisdom for the Will save. But, Charisma is so abundant in useful skills and spellcasting applications, while Wisdom without Perception is so bare bones, there are mechanical reasons to consider the Wisdom for the very powerful spellcasting DC, then allow Charisma to set the Will save. Even so, overall, the CIW feels closer to more of the D&D traditions.


The CIW configuration for the mental abilities is: Charisma (DC), Intelligence (Perception), Wisdom (Will). Consider the following narrative flavor for the Charisma (DC).

Among the physical abilities, the success of the physical attack relies on the precise, steady, and sudden movements of the fine motor skills of ones own manual Dexterity. However this precision is untrue for magical attacks. When one wields magic, it is not one bodily self wielding it. Rather one becomes the universe, and the universe itself manipulates the effect according to the intention of the spellcaster. In order to achieve this universal attunement, the spellcaster must achieve a state of consciousness that is the universe, while at the same time also maintaining the intentions and desires of the person, oneself, who is an aspect of this universe. One can be the universe while forgetting ones sense of self. To do magic, one must be both the altruistic universe and a personal self at the same time. This authenticity of being true and honest about oneself and who oneself is within this universe, and the ability to express oneself even when difficult in this universe, is why the Charisma ability is vital to achieve a magical effect.

 

[Yaarel]

I wanted to somehow give Magic Resistance to Wisdom, but Magic Resistance is too big.

In the Players Handbook, the technical term 'Resistance' means half damage from a specific damage type.

Somewhat inconsistently, the term "Magic Resistance" means "Advantage on saving throws". Possibly, it should be called "Magic Resilience" instead. It appears on certain monster statblocks, but does not exist among player character options.

The Gnome Cunning trait gives a sense of how Magic Resilience might work as a player option. It grants a save Advantage against all mental saves, including INT, WIS, and CHA. This covers many mind affecting spells that would refer to the Perception save and the Will save, so there is a sense of how much design space this worth. The mind affecting spells tend to be more debilitating, but are fewer in frequency and are less deadly. So the deadlier and more frequent spells versus the Fortitude save and the Reflex save would cost even more design space.

By my assessment, a feature that granted an Advantage to every saving throw versus magic, whether Reflex, Fortitude, Will, or Perception, would cost two entire level 4 feats. It might distribute across three feats. This amount of design space is too big to easily give a character all at once.

But to give Magic Resilience incrementally, for the Perception and Will saves versus magic first, then separately for Fortitude, then finally for Reflex − might work as a player option.

In any case, the nature of "Magic Resistance" in 5e is difficult to somehow correlate with the Wisdom ability specifically. So, it is less suitable as a way to beef up the mechanical usefulness of Wisdom.

 

[Yaarel]

The challenge is, the mental abilities are generally nonuseful in combat. Spellcasters use them for spells. But nonmagic concepts tend to dump them, with only occasional minor investments.

A solution is, the features of the Warlord class that do use the mental abilities for combat, become instead the basic traits of the mental abilities themselves. So far in 5e, there is no Warlord class whose 'niche needs protection'. Thus any Fighter that invests in Wisdom, Charisma, or Intelligence can do its morale, inspirational, or tactical Actions. Likewise, spellcasters can do the nonmagical Actions when choosing to not cast spells.

The amount of design space for each ability is clear. An ability is worth an Attack bonus, to the main thus virtually every attack, plus a minor ribbon for thematic flavor. Comparably, an ability is worth a solid defensive save and a pool of hit points. Or a solid defensive save and an important combat utility such as mobility. Likewise each of the mental abilities need to include combat traits that are equally satisfying, enough to make choosing between a physical ability or a mental ability a tough choice. In sum, a mental ability is a substantial amount of design space to cover one or more powerful Warlord-like traits.

The concept of the Intelligence ability is well understood with its Knowledge and Perception, and would correlate the 'tactician' traits relating to tracking and predicting.

Conceptually, Wisdom and Charisma are two sides of the same coin. Both relate to a sense of self and a holism where the whole is greater than sum of the parts, and leaning into the mystical. Charisma focuses more on beauty and eloquence, along with prestige, status, glamor, fate, luck and success.

Then Wisdom focuses more on courage and sanity, relating to its willpower save. This associates the fortitude of the sense of self. More, the courage expands to various nuances. Intimidation is like a test of wills, a test of respective courage. Wisdom can inflict fear on foes and remove fear from friends. The courage can inspire morale among teammates. This ability can maintain calm and centeredness despite terrifying scenarios, thus is a go-to for both policework and criminality. Generally, the Wisdom mental ability can accommodate the Warlord-like traits relating morale, nonphysical healing from courage and mental focus, and bonuses to attack relating to bravery.

In other words, Wisdom can become an appealing choice for combat.

 

[Yaarel]

Something like the following is for the traits of Wisdom. Any character can utilize these aspects of Wisdom. They are intentionally substantial enough to make a difficult choice when deciding between investing a high score in Wisdom or in a physical ability. The mechanical balance is to finetune during playtesting.


The Wisdom ability has the following traits: Will Save, Intimidation Skill, Rally, Hearten, and Bloodthrist.

Rally
Action Type: Bonus Action.
Target: One creature that has more than zero hit points and that can communicate with you.
Range: 10 feet per Wisdom, or Touch.

Your team member who you command and advise, renews hope and rallies in courage. The creature regains a number of hit points equal to its Hit Die plus your Wisdom, without spending a Hit Die. Additionally, it can choose to spend any Hit Dice it has remaining. During a Rally, the creature can heal a total amount of hit points up to half of its maximum hit points. Until the end of your next Long Rest, you can cause to Rally a total number of times equal to your Wisdom plus Proficiency.


Hearten
Action Type: Reaction.
Target: One creature that can communicate with you.
Range: 10 feet per Wisdom, or Touch.

Your ongoing signals and instructions encourage confidence and effectiveness. When a team member fails a d20 Test, you grant a reroll that adds your Wisdom to its total. Alternatively, if an opponent succeeds on a save versus a spell cast by a member of your team, you can force a reroll that subtracts your Wisdom from its total. Until the end of your next Long Rest, you can cause to Hearten a total number of times equal to your Wisdom plus Proficiency.


Bloodthirst
Action Type: Short or Long Rest.
Target: A number of creatures equal to your Wisdom plus Proficiency, that can communicate with you.
Range: 10 feet per Wisdom, or Touch.

The members of your team who you prepare for combat, energize ferociously. Each creature gains an amount of Temporary Hit Points equal to its Hit Die plus your Wisdom, then multiplying by your Proficiency. Each member that currently lacks Heroic Inspiration, gains it.

 

[Laurefindel]

Something like the following is for the traits of Wisdom. Any character can utilize these aspects of Wisdom. They are intentionally substantial enough to make a difficult choice when deciding between investing a high score in Wisdom or in a physical ability. The mechanical balance is to finetune during playtesting.


The Wisdom ability has the following traits: Will Save, Intimidation Skill, Rally, Hearten, and Bloodthrist.

Rally
Action Type: Bonus Action.
Target: One creature that has more than zero hit points and that can communicate with you.
Range: 10 feet per Wisdom, or Touch.

Your team member who you command and advise, renews hope and rallies in courage. The creature regains a number of hit points equal to its Hit Die plus your Wisdom, without spending a Hit Die. Additionally, it can choose to spend any Hit Dice it has remaining. During a Rally, the creature can heal a total amount of hit points up to half of its maximum hit points. Until the end of your next Long Rest, you can cause to Rally a total number of times equal to your Wisdom plus Proficiency.


Hearten
Action Type: Reaction.
Target: One creature that can communicate with you.
Range: 10 feet per Wisdom, or Touch.

Your ongoing signals and instructions encourage confidence and effectiveness. When a team member fails a d20 Test, you grant a reroll that adds your Wisdom to its total. Alternatively, if an opponent succeeds on a save versus a spell cast by a member of your team, you can force a reroll that subtracts your Wisdom from its total. Until the end of your next Long Rest, you can cause to Hearten a total number of times equal to your Wisdom plus Proficiency.


Bloodthirst
Action Type: Short or Long Rest.
Target: A number of creatures equal to your Wisdom plus Proficiency, that can communicate with you.
Range: 10 feet per Wisdom, or Touch.

The members of your team who you prepare for combat, energize ferociously. Each creature gains an amount of Temporary Hit Points equal to its Hit Die plus your Wisdom, then multiplying by your Proficiency. Each member that currently lacks Heroic Inspiration, gains it.

Oh, non-class abilities based on the six? I kind of dig that. I presume all five other abilities would have similar « traits »?

but other than Hearten, these traits don’t particularly favour a high Wis score however. Unless you can only have them if you have a certain Wis score?

 

[Yaarel]

Oh, non-class abilities based on the six? I kind of dig that. I presume all five other abilities would have similar « traits »?

Strength (Reflex) already has traits, such as Jump distance. I would also like it to modify its Walking Base speed. So, a character with Strength Score 16 might have Walk Speed 35 or 40. Also, the Strength would multiply the Walk for the Run speed.

Constitution (Fortitude) has extra hit points as a 'trait'.

Each of the mental abilities need traits to help balance their usefulness during the combat encounter.

But other than Hearten, these traits don’t particularly favour a high Wis score however. Unless you can only have them if you have a certain Wis score?

You are probably right about Hearten and Rally. But Bloodthirst has the Proficiency multiply the Wisdom, so at least its intention is to scale while leveling across the tiers.

5.24 has a different philosophy about hit points. Healing is twice as effective, and the Toughness feat looks cheap (2 hit points per level, for only a half feat, wow). I still need to get a new feel for the hit points in the new equilibrium, especially at the higher levels.

The intention is, the amount of hit points that Rally and Bloodthirst grant should be substantial, like the hit points that Constitution grants. Probably it should multiply by level instead.

Each ability should be worth a +1 to (virtually) every d20 Attack roll, plus minor utility.

 

[mellored]

The easiest ability system to balance is 0 ability scores.

Everyone seems to start with a +3 anyways, so it's not doing much besides grouping skills.