D&D (2024) Is it possible to balance the six abilities?

[Minigiant]

But that is trivial to do. If not enough creatures are targeting Fortitude (Constitution), then the published dungeon crawl adds a few rooms that do target Fortitude.

Again..

Only works if both DM, Player , and Designers agree to the base assumption.

Because I could make a Death Strength Save spell that pulls the target 50 feet under ground.


It's why AC Dextery vs HP Constitution works but Banish Charisma doesn't.

 

[Yaarel]

Again..

Only works if both DM, Player , and Designers agree to the base assumption.

Because I could make a Death Strength Save spell that pulls the target 50 feet under ground.


It's why AC Dextery vs HP Constitution works but Banish Charisma doesn't.

But that is why having four comprehensive conceptually discrete saves that can easily be balanced to each other, is better than a sprawling ad-hoc mess.

3e reducing the ad-hoc saves of 1e down to three salient saves, is the right idea. But there is a fourth.

 

[FrogReaver]

But that is trivial to do. If not enough creatures are targeting Fortitude (Constitution), then the published dungeon crawl adds a few rooms that do target Fortitude.

To balance the game you cannot just balance a single dungeon. You have to balance every potential dungeon. Inevitably that means you have to create binding rules for the GM to follow that doesn't allow them to stray outside your designed balanced space. The GM has to agree to follow that. That's not a trivial thing to achieve at all.

Especially since combat is dynamic. You don't get to guarantee which monsters are targeted first by the players. So even if you include equal monsters they won't all get equal actions.

 

[FrogReaver]

But that is why having four comprehensive conceptually discrete saves that can easily be balanced to each other, is better than a sprawling ad-hoc mess.

3e reducing the ad-hoc saves of 1e down to three salient saves, is the right idea. But there is a fourth.

The point is the saves (no matter how many) cannot be easily balanced to each other. This isn't a trivial exercise.

There's is no Holy Magic Number of Ability Scores/Saves.

 

[Yaarel]

To balance the game you cannot just balance a single dungeon. You have to balance every potential dungeon. Inevitably that means you have to create binding rules for the GM to follow that doesn't allow them to stray outside your designed balanced space. The GM has to agree to follow that. That's not a trivial thing to achieve at all.

It is impossible to design an adventure in a balanced way, unless the rules themselves are clear and systematic.

Especially since combat is dynamic. You don't get to guarantee which monsters are targeted first by the players. So even if you include equal monsters they won't all get equal actions.

Different characters will shine in different combat encounters. There is blurry line between contributing and showing off.

It is the job of the DM to challenge the players about equally during a game session. The DM cannot fulfill this responsibility unless the rules themselves make it clear which saves of a player character need to be challenged. (And which saves of a monster will be most vulnerable to a player.) The rules need systematization rather than ad-hoc mess.

The point is the saves (no matter how many) cannot be easily balanced to each other. This isn't a trivial exercise.

There's is no Holy Magic Number of Ability Scores/Saves.

Zero is too few, a million is too many. Somewhere there is a range of optimal.

With regards to the mechanics that actually happen most frequently during D&D editions, they tend to correspond conceptually to the deep four.

 

[FrogReaver]

With regards to the mechanics that actually happen most frequently during D&D editions, they tend to correspond conceptually to the deep four.

To me the issue here is plain as day. D&D started with 6 abilities. You remapped those to 4. Of course you can say everything in D&D corresponds to those 4 simply due to your remapping. Couple that with the fact that the game was created with those 6 abilities in mind so of course conceptually nearly everything in D&D corresponds to them.

This doesn't really tell us about anything other than D&D's current state and that you can map 6 things down to 4 (not surprising). I really don't understand why you keep bringing it up.

 

[Minigiant]

But that is why having four comprehensive conceptually discrete saves that can easily be balanced to each other, is better than a sprawling ad-hoc mess.

3e reducing the ad-hoc saves of 1e down to three salient saves, is the right idea. But there is a fourth.

3e was a mess.

Fort saves were serious suck or death on fail.
Reflex saves did damage but nothing serious unless the target was extremely under leveled.
Will saves rarely killed, sometimes incapacitated, and sometimes did niche nerfs but 99% came from spells.

You have to rejigger ALL the offensive spells.

 

[Minigiant]

To me the easiest and most meaningful to balance is

STRENGTH: Armor

Strength is factored into armor. Medium armor is better than light armor. Heavy armor is better than medium armor.

DEXTERITY: Initiative

Low Dexterity means you go last.

CONSTITUTION: HP
Constitution factors into HP.

INTELLIGENCE: Skills.

You get bonus skills for high Intelligence. You lose class skills for having low Intelligence.

WISDOM: Perception

Spotting traps and ambushes.

CHARISMA: Bonus Magic item Attunement

Face it. D&D is a loot game. Higher Charisma means you can attune to more loot.