D&D (2024) Is it possible to balance the six abilities?

[Yaarel]

The truth of the matter is that if you really want to balance the five abilities scores in this heavily combat-based game you have only two options.

1) You force every ability score to matter to both Warrior characters and caster characters.

Or

2) You tie to combat one aspect to each of the six abilities scores that cannot be overwritten by any class ability and has the bulk of its power come from the ability score in which that you cannot bypass prowess in that aspect in any other way.

I suggest a combo of both 1) and 2).

The abilities correspond to Attack and to Save.

1) All classes depend on all of the abilities that Save.

2) Each class can pick one Attack and dump the other Attacks.

(Of course, some concepts like Ranger will pick two Attacks, one for swords and one for spells.)

 

[Minigiant]

I suggest a combo of both 1) and 2).

The abilities correspond to Attack and to Save.

1) All classes depend on all of the abilities that Save.

2) Each class can pick one Attack and dump the other Attacks.

(Of course, some concepts like Ranger will pick two Attacks, one for swords and one for spells.)

Only works if you rejigger all the monster attacks evenly to all defences.

Which is a MAJOR stretch.

 

[FrogReaver]

Only works if you rejigger all the monster attacks evenly to all defences.

Which is a MAJOR stretch.

And even then, once you have sufficient hp/defenses to last a few direct damage hits then whatever best defends against status effects is likely better. Whether that's due to the effects it defends from being more debilitating or common or some combination.

So not only do they need to be equal in the amount of damage they prevent, they also need to be equal in the amount and magnitude of status effects they prevent.

And even then, the DM has to use those monsters in roughly the right proportions for their individual campaign or it's all thrown off.

 

[Yaarel]

Only works if you rejigger all the monster attacks evenly to all defences.

Which is a MAJOR stretch.

Yes, the monster statblock is an issue, but not an urgent one.

Monsters and players use different rules. The monster mechanics are not player-facing. DMs can and do, drastically alter, fudge, or lazily guesstimate the data in the statblock. Often players dont even notice.

In other words, even when tweaking the abilities to improve quality for players, the old monster statblock can continue in use as-is. Presumably, future statblock publications will have the recent ability tweaks in mind. But again, players and monsters use different rules anyway. A discrepancy about whether Perception is keying off of Intelligence or Wisdom, is largely inconsequential for a monster that lasts three rounds.

 

[FrogReaver]

Yes, the monster statblock is an issue, but not an urgent one.

Monsters and players use different rules. The monster mechanics are not player-facing. DMs can and do, drastically alter, fudge, or lazily guesstimate the data in the statblock. Often players dont even notice.

In other words, even when tweaking the abilities to improve quality for players, the old monster statblock can continue in use as-is. Presumably, future statblock publications will have the recent ability tweaks in mind. But again, players and monsters use different rules anyway. A discrepancy about whether Perception is keying off of Intelligence or Wisdom, is largely inconsequential.

That's simply not true. Currently in 5e all the attributes do provide a specific saving throw defense. The game already is doing what you suggest. It still doesn't work the way you predict because the monster attacks targeting each save aren't balanced.

 

[Minigiant]

Yes, the monster statblock is an issue, but not an urgent one.

No.

It's a major issue.

The entire basis behind making every ability score balanced by tying them to defenses requires you to make the rate of targeting that defense relative to its magnitude of prevention equal among every defense.

Without that you end up with how strength-based saving throws are in fifth edition where it's exists but it's really targeted and failing it is minor. Or 5e charisma based saving throws where there are so few spells that targeted that you do not have to worry about it even though when you do fail one you get teleported to another dimension.

 

[Yaarel]

That's simply not true. Currently in 5e all the attributes do provide a specific saving throw defense. The game already is doing what you suggest.

I know. That is why I am saying if the old statblock is calculating something one way, but a future statblock is calculating a different way, ... it is something that most players wont notice. Nor would it matter. The old threats can carry on threatening.

Note, currently, some abilities have a saving throw that is way better than other saving throws. Boiling the saves down to the Deep Four, helps toward balancing the saves for the first time ever.

It still doesn't work the way you predict because the monster attacks targeting each save aren't balanced.

You mean like, this monster is targeting Reflex (Dexterity), not Reflex (Strength), or something like that?

That is fine. Different creatures cause different threats. It is easy to introduce other statblocks that challenge whatever seems to be currently underchallenged during the adventure.

Future statblocks would incorporate any ability corrections.

 

[FrogReaver]

I know. That is why I am saying if the old statblock is calculating something one way, but a future statblock is calculating a different way, ... it is something that most players wont notice. Nor would it matter. The old threats can carry on threatening.

Note, currently, some abilities have a saving throw that is way better than other saving throws. Boiling the saves down to the Deep Four, helps toward balancing the saves for the first time ever.


You mean like, this monster is targeting Reflex (Dexterity), not Reflex (Strength), or something like that?

That is fine. Different creatures cause different threats. It is easy to introduce other statblocks that challenge whatever seems to be currently underchallenged during the adventure.

Future statblocks would incorporate any ability corrections.

Here in the real world 5e already has 1 save per ability score. Here in the real world 5e doesn't have balanced ability scores. Players are still mechanically incentivized to dump certain character stats. What you are proposing has already been tried out in the wild and has failed to deliver your promised results. You aren't proposing anything at all different from what we currently have.

 

[Yaarel]

Here in the real world 5e already has 1 save per ability score. Here in the real world 5e doesn't have balanced ability scores.

Correct. The 5e designers chose to leave the abilities unbalanced and unfixed.

What you are proposing has already been tried out in the wild and has failed to deliver your promised results. You aren't proposing anything at all different from what we currently have.

I am unsure which 'wild' you are referring to.

Game systems that have four abilities, like Tales from the Loop and Shadow of the Weird Wizard, are doing fine.

Games that have six abilities that are conceptually discrete and mechanically balanced dont exist as far as I know.

 

[Yaarel]

No.

It's a major issue.

The entire basis behind making every ability score balanced by tying them to defenses requires you to make the rate of targeting that defense relative to its magnitude of prevention equal among every defense.

Without that you end up with how strength-based saving throws are in fifth edition where it's exists but it's really targeted and failing it is minor. Or 5e charisma based saving throws where there are so few spells that targeted that you do not have to worry about it even though when you do fail one you get teleported to another dimension.

But that is trivial to do. If not enough creatures are targeting Fortitude (Constitution), then the published dungeon crawl adds a few rooms that do target Fortitude.