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D&D (2024) Is it possible to balance the six abilities?

No. More like all but the class that gets the HP skill has the same hp, same for AC, mental resistance, etc.
I am trying to make sense of what you are saying.

So, every class has Hit Points, but only one class can have lots of hit points?

So every other class is fragile and dies in combat?

One class has high hit points, but a different class has high AC? Note, that this kind of rocket tag would be exceedingly difficult for a DM to create combat encounters that all players would enjoy.

As you just mentioned now in an other post, the "asymmetry can only be balanced under specific circumstances". It seems impracticable for a DM to run a game like that.

D&D 5e aims for a robust base of survivability in combat. On top of this are different ways of contributing to combat. There is a feeling of different contributions roughly balancing with each other. (5e has enough balance, there can be complaints when certain classes or subclasses are not powerful enough in combat compared to each other.)


As for spells, in such a system you wouldn't have a spellcasting skill, you would have a fireball skill, an invisibility skill, etc.
4e did something like this in the sense that everything formated as a "power". Often something like a feat that granted an Action with a specific Effect. The "attacker always rolled" the d20, similar to a skill check. 4e still made use of abilities and made an effort to balance the abilities better with each other.


It's a starting point not an end point. It's meant to illustrate the possibility, not to be desirable.
Why argue for a game that is "nondesirable"?

My interests are improving the D&D game which is already my favorite game.

Generally, the idea of organizing a sea of options by means of the meaningful tropes of the abilities, is looking pretty good.


But we can take the starting point and then show any configuration of groupings is then possible. It's fairly trivial to do so from this point, because once we have all classes have unique skills of whatever arbitrary number and amount we want, then it's straightforward to realize that there's no specific grouping of such skills that is required, we can group them any way we want.
Except, having each class have nothing in common with an other class looks unplayable.

So 'skills', traits, features, feats, whatever, do seem to need abilities to group them meaningfully.

And if there are only four classes, that is the same thing as having only four abilities, except customization becomes impossible.

So far your 'solution' by deleting the abilities comes across as nonviable.


I will focus on your critiques on D&D in the next post.
 

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Early D&D was balanced around imbalanced play.

Like @FrogReaver stated, the second you added or changed a major part, it crashed.
And everyone added and changed stuff.
I am familiar with AD&D 1e, and play it with friends every now and then. I appreciate the historical experience of it.

That said. 1e is grotesquely unbalanced.
 

Early D&D was balanced around imbalanced play.

Like @FrogReaver stated, the second you added or changed a major part, it crashed.
And everyone added and changed stuff.
Yea, but it doesn't even have to be that drastic. Just changing the set of encounters can change the balance. Adding in more ways to bypass combats or making it easier/harder to do so can change the balance. Etc. Having adventuring days with more/less combats. All this stuff introduces imbalances into an asymmetrical system.
 

I am trying to make sense of what you are saying.

So, every class has Hit Points, but only one class can have lots of hit points?
Yes.
So every other class is fragile and dies in combat?
Maybe, maybe not. Depends on where you as designer set that baseline to be.

One class has high hit points, but a different class has high AC? Note, that this kind of rocket tag would be exceedingly difficult for a DM to create combat encounters that all players would enjoy.
Sorry I didn't design a full playable and fun game just for illustrative purposes. You are just going to have to accept that the purpose of the example was to illustrate a rather specific point.

*And anyways, on this point it's really no different than your separate mental and physical toughness resilience. The same exact critique could be applied to them.

As you just mentioned now in an other post, the "asymmetry can only be balanced under specific circumstances". It seems impracticable for a DM to run a game like that.
That critique is applicable to any asymmetric game. Even asymmetrical games where skills are grouped together.

D&D 5e aims for a robust base of survivability in combat. On top of this are different ways of contributing to combat. There is a feeling of different contributions roughly balancing with each other. (5e has enough balance, there can be complaints when certain classes or subclasses are not powerful enough in combat compared to each other.)
Really? This feels like a heads I win, tails you lose statement. '5e has enough balance, but classes are still not as powerful as each other.' Like what the heck does that even suppose to mean?

4e did something like this in the sense that everything formated as a "power". Often something like a feat that granted an Action with a specific Effect. The "attacker always rolled" the d20, similar to a skill check. 4e still made use of abilities and made an effort to balance the abilities better with each other.
4e did nothing similar to what I'm describing.

Why argue for a game that is "nondesirable"?
Already answered - for illustrative purposes, to strip down everything to the base level and build up from there. Something i believe it was you that specifically advocated for earlier in the thread.

My interests are improving the D&D game which is already my favorite game.
I'm all for that.

Generally, the idea of organizing a sea of options by means of the meaningful tropes of the abilities, is looking pretty good.
Sure. It's a common way to do things.

If your requirement is keep the 6 D&D attributes and balance the game as best as you can around them then let's do that, but that's not what was being discussed when I jumped into the conversation.

Except, having each class have nothing in common with an other class looks unplayable.
Why? Barbarians and Wizards have nearly nothing in common with each other. Unless you are meaning the basic game structures of having an hp, having an ac, etc. Sure, but that's not the kind of commanility you were talking about earlier when we started down this rabit hole. We were talking about grouping skills to attributes. So it kind of feels like you are changing definitions midstream on me here.

So 'skills', traits, features, feats, whatever, do seem to need abilities to group them meaningfully.
You keep asserting this with absolutely no evidence.

If you want to group them better that way i've got no issues there. Saying it's a requirement or overall better to do it that way just isn't true.

And if there are only four classes, that is the same thing as having only four abilities, except customization becomes impossible.
Are you implying that Classes cannot have more than one ability associated with them? I mean I cannot see how this statement makes any sense in any possible way whatsoever.

Customization can be handled other ways...

So far your 'solution' by deleting the abilities comes across as nonviable.
I'm not presenting a solution. I'm presenting the hypothetical game as a counterpoint. You keep making very broad claims about how things must be done without having done the deconstruction necessary to show that what you are claiming as the only way to do a thing is the only way to do the thing.
 

IMO. Most of the problems you cite with modern D&D stem from a few areas
1. Trying to be too granular.
Granularity allows for customization. It makes many different kinds of flavor possible. It is part of why the D&D 5e gaming system can be used for so many different genres.

(To be fair, every genre needs to be a flavor of combat. But even then, it is possible to play D&D without combat.)


The difference in a single attribute bonus barely matters in actual play.
Optimizers care deeply about a single bonus from an ability. Their various builds speak for themselves about the mathematical usefulness of an ability bonus.

In normal play, there is a feeling that the +1 of a d20 is (coincidentally) the right amount of difference. Indeed, if an option only grants a single +1, players take it or leave it. But if an option is +2, it becomes a must-have. For example, switching to percentile d100 dice would not meaningfully improve the game, in the sense that the difference between +001 and +002 would be mostly a meaningless waste of time.

Relatedly, I feel strongly, that if I had to choose between +2 and Advantage, I would pick Advantage. But if I had to choose between +3 and Advantage, I would definitely pick the +3. (Advantage is good, but becomes less good when one really needs it to succeed at something difficult. Then the flat bonus is significantly more helpful.) The fact that the differences between +1, +2, and +3 can 'feel' different from each other, confirms that this is a useful and meaningful amount of math.

A single ability bonus matters.


2. Grouping specific skills to attributes (and really having that split between skills and attributes at all).
It's part of the reason a really intimidating Wizard is so hard to make in D&D.
When I DM, I rely on the abilities. Something requires strength-toughness, mobility-precision, social-skills-self-expression, or other kinds of knowledgeability-awareness. It is normally obvious which ability is relevant for a given challenge.

The skills are more fluid, as a thematic 'proficiency' bonus, and might circumstantially be relevant for various kinds of ability challenges.

Note, the abilities dont need to have the same number of skills. Constitution has the trait of Hit Points, and while it is its own problematic, it is effective enough without combat skills.

3. Current system design makes dex, con and class main stat the primary combat stats and everything else if for out of combat.
Yes, D&D 5e overuses Str, Dex, (Athletics), and Con for combat, and underuses Int, (Perception), Cha, and Wis.

Blame 1e.

1e evolved from a wargame. It had a divorce between highly regimented mechanics for physical combat. And almost zero mechanics for mental challenges in noncombat scenarios, where players themselves would come up with the solutions. The mental abilities on the character sheet were large irrelevant to actual gameplay.

The only time mental abilities came up mechanically was for spellcasting stats in combat.

D&D has evolved much since. Mainly 3e made the breakthrus for standardizing and quantifying uses for the mental abilities. 4e made any ability equally useful in combat. (For example, one can use either Dex or Int for the Reflex Save.)

5e is now in a situation of wanting to keep the abilities thematically distinct, but overall equally useful in combat.

This is fine except leveling in D&D typically come from defeating enemies and failure in D&D mainly stems primarily from dying in combat and so the combat stats are already inherently more important. If TPK's potentially depended on passing animal handling and medicine checks, then those would be top skills. If we had alternate paths relying on insight/intimidation/etc to defeat every enemy in the game and protect us from potential TPK then those skills would be just as valued.
Totally agree.

While it is possible to play D&D without combat, this game evolved from a combat game and remains combat-centric.

Heh, probably the greatest challenge today for D&D is how to be a combat game and at the same time sound "ethical" during the roleplay aspects of it. Most of the game can sound kinda murderous.

Regarding the abilities, it is easy for the mental abilities to be as important in combat as the physical abilities, even tho 1e didnt do this.

4. The magic system
Magic does too much independent of everything but main stat (or i should say only dependent on class).

I do too (well not the classless system). But Balance does not equate to 'no dump stats'. Those are 2 separate desires.
Regarding dump abilities. Once an Attack ability is chosen, the other Attack abilities can be dumped. However the Save-Utility abilties are always nice, often necessary, and painful to dump.


Part of the reason for the current situation where the casters a Single-Ability-Dependent for casting:

Example. The Wizard is Multi-Ability-Dependent. It must have high enough scores in Intelligence (for casting), Dexterity (for avoiding getting hit and surviving most spell attacks), and Constitution (for surviving combat generally).

If instead, all of the mental abilities were useful for surviving and winning in combat, then the Wizard would be less dependent on the physical abilities in combat.

Then, the mental abilities could also relate to different aspects of spellcasting, analogous to how the physical abilities relate to different aspects of physical combat.


It's not so much that such a game would be Atonal, but it would just be missing a wide swath of potential tones. But again, the concept was a starting point to get to a particular place, not a stand alone example of a finalized game design.
If there are only four classes, it is virtually the same thing as having only four abilities, except player customization becomes impossible, and the DM has a more difficult time running it.
 

Yes.

Maybe, maybe not. Depends on where you as designer set that baseline to be.


Sorry I didn't design a full playable and fun game just for illustrative purposes. You are just going to have to accept that the purpose of the example was to illustrate a rather specific point.

*And anyways, on this point it's really no different than your separate mental and physical toughness resilience. The same exact critique could be applied to them.


That critique is applicable to any asymmetric game. Even asymmetrical games where skills are grouped together.


Really? This feels like a heads I win, tails you lose statement. '5e has enough balance, but classes are still not as powerful as each other.' Like what the heck does that even suppose to mean?


4e did nothing similar to what I'm describing.


Already answered - for illustrative purposes, to strip down everything to the base level and build up from there. Something i believe it was you that specifically advocated for earlier in the thread.


I'm all for that.


Sure. It's a common way to do things.

If your requirement is keep the 6 D&D attributes and balance the game as best as you can around them then let's do that, but that's not what was being discussed when I jumped into the conversation.


Why? Barbarians and Wizards have nearly nothing in common with each other. Unless you are meaning the basic game structures of having an hp, having an ac, etc. Sure, but that's not the kind of commanility you were talking about earlier when we started down this rabit hole. We were talking about grouping skills to attributes. So it kind of feels like you are changing definitions midstream on me here.


You keep asserting this with absolutely no evidence.

If you want to group them better that way i've got no issues there. Saying it's a requirement or overall better to do it that way just isn't true.


Are you implying that Classes cannot have more than one ability associated with them? I mean I cannot see how this statement makes any sense in any possible way whatsoever.

Customization can be handled other ways...


I'm not presenting a solution. I'm presenting the hypothetical game as a counterpoint. You keep making very broad claims about how things must be done without having done the deconstruction necessary to show that what you are claiming as the only way to do a thing is the only way to do the thing.
Heh, I came into this discussion neutral. I assumed a game without abilities would just be a different style of gameplay. But the more I explored it, the clearer it became. One way or an other, it would either have abilities by a different name, or else be absolutely awful and unplayable.

In any case, D&D already has abilities. Understanding what these are exactly, is important. Helping them function better for when choosing them to build diverse character concepts, is beneficial.
 

Granularity allows for customization. It makes many different kinds of flavor possible. It is part of why the D&D 5e gaming system can be used for so many different genres.
My actual critique was that it was 'too granular.' Of course you need some granularity for customization, but there is such a thing as too much granularity as well.

IMO D&D doesn't do a great job for many genres. Heck, it doesn't even do a good job for basic Lord of the Rings style fantasy. It's fairly terrible for heists.

Optimizers care deeply about a single bonus from an ability. Their various builds speak for themselves about the mathematical usefulness of an ability bonus.

In normal play, there is a feeling that the +1 of a d20 is (coincidentally) the right amount of difference. Indeed, if an option only grants a single +1, players take it or leave it. But if an option is +2, it becomes a must-have. For example, switching to percentile d100 dice would not meaningfully improve the game, in the sense that the difference between +001 and +002 would be mostly a meaningless waste of time.

Relatedly, I feel strongly, that if I had to choose between +2 and Advantage, I would pick Advantage. But if I had to choose between +3 and Advantage, I would definitely pick the +3. (Advantage is good, but becomes less good when one really needs it to succeed at something difficult. Then the flat bonus is significantly more helpful.) The fact that the differences between +1, +2, and +3 can 'feel' different from each other, confirms that this is a useful and meaningful amount of math.

A single ability bonus matters.
I'm an optimizer. Ask me whether it actually mattered if my 2014 Battlemaster Crossbow Expert Sharpshooter Fighter had a 12 or 10 charisma all else being equal. It didn't one bit. +1 more in your primary attribute really matters. +1 in almost anything else is not really very important.

When I DM, I rely on the abilities. Something requires strength-toughness, mobility-precision, social-skills-self-expression, or other kinds of knowledgeability-awareness. It is normally obvious which ability is relevant for a given challenge.

The skills are more fluid, as a thematic 'proficiency' bonus, and might circumstantially be relevant for various kinds of ability challenges.

Note, the abilities dont need to have the same number of skills. Constitution has the trait of Hit Points, and while it is its own problematic, it is effective enough without combat skills.
I'm not worried about number of skills per attribute. I just want to know why under your grouping system I cannot make a really intimidating wizard, and more importantly why does the lack of that possibility even make sense from a character creation perspective.

Yes, D&D 5e overuses Str, Dex, (Athletics), and Con for combat, and underuses Int, (Perception), Cha, and Wis.
Not if your a Wizard.

Regarding the abilities, it is easy for the mental abilities to be as important in combat as the physical abilities, even tho 1e didnt do this.
In 5e they are. Maybe moreso. After low levels and I have a sufficient hp buffer, I'm much more worried about things like hold person/dominate person/fear spell/etc than I am about taking damage.

Regarding dump abilities. Once an Attack ability is chosen, the other Attack abilities can be dumped. However the Save-Utility abilties are always nice, often necessary, and painful to dump.


Part of the reason for the current situation where the casters a Single-Ability-Dependent for casting:

Example. The Wizard is Multi-Ability-Dependent. It must have high enough scores in Intelligence (for casting), Dexterity (for avoiding getting hit and surviving most spell attacks), and Constitution (for surviving combat generally).

If instead, all of the mental abilities were useful for surviving and winning in combat, then the Wizard would be less dependent on the physical abilities in combat.

Then, the mental abilities could also relate to different aspects of spellcasting, analogous to how the physical abilities relate to different aspects of physical combat.
Right, but this brings me back to the issue for you being about 'dump stats' not 'balance'. The game can be balanced with or without dump stats. You desire a balanced game with no dump stats. That's fine, but you started off talking about balance which threw the whole discussion off for me.

If there are only four classes, it is virtually the same thing as having only four abilities, except player customization becomes impossible, and the DM has a more difficult time running it.
Okay. This makes no sense. Why?
 

Okay. This makes no sense. Why?
In your hypothesis, only one class has high hit points. No other classes do. Only one class has high AC, no other classes do. And so on. In such a premise:

There are a finite number of significant combat mechanics. Only a handful of mutually exclusive combat classes would even be theoretically possible. (Noncombat classes like Pub Barkeeper, would be irrelevant.)

Among this small group of classes, they would distinguish from each other thematically.

The classes would look something like:

• Warrior (or Heavy Infantry)
• Expert (or Light Infantry or Skirmisher or Rogue or Athlete or Special Ops)
• Priest (or Healer or Diplomat or Inspirer)
• Mage (or Blaster or Artillery)

There arent really combat options that the above four dont already include. Even 'cavalry' is more like a multicalss Warrior-Expert being a tank with high mobility.

These ways of 'organizing skills' are simply the 'deep four' abilities by an other name.

• Strength-Fortitude
• Dexterity-Reflex
• Charisma-Will
• Intelligence-Perception

Respectively.


However, if these four are 'classes' instead of abilities that all classes can benefit from, then customization becomes impossible. There is only one kind of Warrior. No other kinds of Warrior are possible, because the hypothetical premise requires that every class is mutually exclusive.
 

The truth of the matter is that if you really want to balance the five abilities scores in this heavily combat-based game you have only two options.

1) You force every ability score to matter to both Warrior characters and caster characters.

Or

2) You tie to combat one aspect to each of the six abilities scores that cannot be overwritten by any class ability and has the bulk of its power come from the ability score in which that you cannot bypass prowess in that aspect in any other way.
 

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