Is it time for 5E?

[fumetti]

Pre-4E spells were not quite so "by and large combat." Sure, there's plenty of combat effect spells. But there were also a great many spells that had no necessary relationship to combat.

Try finding a 4E spell that isn't constructed for combat. I only found one. Every other one was reimagined as an in-combat casting. (4E had rituals to balance this, but have been conspicuously absent from the Essentials.) There's just no mechanic text to guide the player for noncombat usage, unlike earlier editions.

 

[Stormonu]

I'd be careful on the spell front - 2E did put out a 4 volume set of wizard spells, a 4 volume set of priest spells and a 4 volume set of magic items. So there's quite a volume of that stuff out there.

Th funny thing is that many of the spells in 1e & 2e were present because of a lack of an integrated skill system - spells such as Jump come to mind.

Still, the focus of 1e and especially 2e come across completely different than 3e or even 4e.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Yes, the truth can be quite shocking.

Indeed, and the truth is that spells are not by and large related to combat.

As you point out, the rules specify that certain spells cannot be used in the most obvious way they would be in combat. Because those spells are not about combat. Funny, that.


RC

 

[Raven Crowking]

Still, the focus of 1e and especially 2e come across completely different than 3e or even 4e.

Very much so. XP to you!

 

[Alzrius]

I'd be careful on the spell front - 2E did put out a 4 volume set of wizard spells, a 4 volume set of priest spells and a 4 volume set of magic items. So there's quite a volume of that stuff out there.

Actually, the Priest's Spell Compendiums only had three volumes; divine spellcasters didn't get quite as much love as arcane spellcasters.

That said, those series all rocked on toast, and were some of the very best material ever to come out of Second Edition.

 

[Mallus]

Th funny thing is that many of the spells in 1e & 2e were present because of a lack of an integrated skill system - spells such as Jump come to mind.

That's a good observation. Spells were an important "lever" with which to move the game world in part because there were formal rules for them, unlike skills. In fact, in the campaigns I played in --and, frankly, ran-- by mid-level, magic became the most important lever the PC's employed, which had the unintended consequence of making those PC capable of deploying spells more important when it came to overcoming game challenges ie, making them more important period.

And I don't think this was an uncommon experience. One of most eye-opening things revealed by the 4e Edition War was the degree to which some D&D players equated spell use with role-playing. To them, 4e's deliberate scaling back --or evisceration, if you prefer-- of non-combat spells was tantamount to the removal of role-playing itself from the system.

The fact 4e replaced spells with a more robust skill system as the primary lever for affecting the game world seemed lost on them.

As did the fact much of D&D's literary inspiration featured little or no protagonist-controlled magic.

Sometimes I miss the old, pre-4e spell system/lists. I love fantasy wahoo as much as, if not more, than the next guy. But whenever 5e comes round, slouching towards Lake Geneva, I sure hope it doesn't go back locating the most decisive PC abilities in the spell-casting classes.

 

[delericho]

That said, those series all rocked on toast, and were some of the very best material ever to come out of Second Edition.

Yeah. I was really, really disappointed that the 3e Compendia didn't have anywhere close to the same level of completeness. Oh well.

 

[shadzar]

Yes, the truth can be quite shocking. Even although some spells could be used out-of-combat, most spells were still designed how to get the edge on opponents, and of the spells meant to be not used in combat, some clever and more smarter players than the gm found a way how to use it in combat anyway, so that the rules have to specify for create water to not be conjured inside somebody.

: confused : = and hovering over the image with your mouse will show the title/alt text for the image.

Spells were designed for the spell, not to use in combat. I recall when 4th came out all the "where are the non-combat spells?, and why can you only fly in combat?"

Others have probably explained where you and the original person i quoted is wrong in their poor understanding of the spells, but I will just say, that you might want to read a bit of them before you start stating their purpose or design intent. Many would also be bad idea to use during combat, unless you are jsut trying to waste it and free up a spell slot by letting yourself be distracted so the spell is lost.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

Pre-4E spells were not quite so "by and large combat." Sure, there's plenty of combat effect spells. But there were also a great many spells that had no necessary relationship to combat.

Try finding a 4E spell that isn't constructed for combat. I only found one. Every other one was reimagined as an in-combat casting. (4E had rituals to balance this, but have been conspicuously absent from the Essentials.) There's just no mechanic text to guide the player for noncombat usage, unlike earlier editions.

Try looking under "Utility," which is an entire catagory of powers that everyone gets.

Well, first, read the actual powers, as I'm doubting you did so in the first place.

 

[MichaelSomething]

Try looking under "Utility," which is an entire catagory of powers that everyone gets.

Well, first, read the actual powers, as I'm doubting you did so in the first place.

Luckily, I took the liberty of creating a small sample list of the non combat utility powers.


Holy Lantern, Cleric Utility 6: Summons a lantern that lights stuff up, boosts Insight and Perception, and is good for 10 hours.

Cloud Chariot, Cleric Utility 22: Summons a, well, chariot that can you can ride in air and use for travel.

Astral Speech, Paladin Utility 2: “You gain a +4 bonus to Diplomacy checks until the end of the encounter.”

One Heart, One Mind, Paladin Utility 6: This is mind linking power. Also boosts the aid another action.

Crucial Advice, Ranger Utility 2: Let’s an ally re-roll a skill check that they made.

Skilled Companion, Ranger Utility 6: Gives an ally bonus to their skill checks.

Forest Ghost, Ranger Utility 22: Makes you invisible if you have cover or concealment.


This is just from the PHB and just from 3 classes. I didn't include powers that heal or enhance movement since while those powers can be used out of combat, most of the time they'll be used in it. The Fighter didn't have any that made the list but that class is called the "Fighter" for a reason. I stopped at the Rouge because almost every utility power is useful outside of combat. The list can be expanded if desired but I'm too lazy to do it unless I have to.