Is it wrong for Troll's to fight defensively?

[ThomasBJJ]

What I failed to mention was that it was 1 Troll against 5 2nd level characters. I lowered the Trolls Str down to 19 and dropped his Con down 2 points. So it was not even a full strength troll. Plus, the PC's were warned that there were trolls in the area. Still, the PC's barely won that fight, and all told, had to beat 4 trolls (one at a time). Too tough an encounter for 5 2nd levelers?

[edit]

When I say 1 at a time, the trolls were in seperate parts of the cave area. The players had the option to rest after each one, they ended up fighting 1, then went straight after another immediately. The next day they fought one more (another tough fight) and ended up fighting the 4th one in all about 1 hour later, not necessarily by choice. (Involved being stuck with it in a pit trap. 3 PC's went down to fight it while the fighter/archer stayed up above firing arrows down on it. The Fighter and Cleric got dropped quick (they were wounded from the last fight) and only the Monk/sorcerer was left in melee, with the fighter still firing arrows (90% missed). The Monk/Sor was doing good with a Mage armor & shield spell giving an AC of 26, but suddenly the shield spell wore off and he was toast as well. Troll had only 4 Hp left. The fighter finally nailed it for 8 dmg. it got back up the next round with 1 hp (regenerated). If the fighter missed one shot, he would never catch up with its regeneration and the 4 downed PC's would die. Luckily, he hit again for like 9, jumped down and Coup de gras and burned it with one of the last oil flasks that failed to break earlier.
Litterally 1 failed attack roll from losing almost the whole party.

 

[ThomasBJJ]

I was going to have the troll go on total defence for two rounds to regenerate, but it was kicking the crap outta them as is... so I decided that it was smart, but not that smart.

 

[Mephistopheles]

If my players decide to take their characters somewhere that they know will be too tough for them I tend not to pull my punches for long. I'll give them a chance to realise that the place is indeed too hard for them and withdraw, but if they don't take the hint then so be it.

While trolls probably are too tough for a second level party, they went there willingly. The danger with cutting them slack in known danger areas is that the players end up thinking that no matter where they go they will survive because you'll scale the danger back so that they don't get wiped out.

 

[dcollins]

Luckily, he hit again for like 9, jumped down and Coup de gras and burned it with one of the last oil flasks that failed to break earlier.

Tricky rules note: this CDG should not have been allowed unless the fighter was using a fire- or acid-based weapon.

MM p. 10, under the heading "Regeneration" -- "A regenerating creature that has been rendered unconscious through subdual damage can be killed with a coup de grace... the attack cannot be of a type that automatically converts to subdual damage."

Trolls are definitely too strong for a 2nd level party to be expected to fight them. At CR 5 (minor ability tinkering notwithstanding), it's a reasonable fight for a 5th level party -- a 2nd level party should have about a 50/50 chance of entirely getting wiped out by a properly run troll. (Extrapolated chance of the whole party getting wiped out by a succession of 4 trolls: 94%.)

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Hmm, it seems to me that burning oil can be considered as a fire based attack, but that might just me (and my group)

 

[Petrosian]

On the issue of players being surprised and thinking it odd or even wrong that a troll fights defensively...

You should probably insult them and call them whiners because there is nothing in the troll descriptions which would lead them to....

MM180 "Trolls have no fear of death. They launch themselves into combat without hesitation, flailing wildly at the closest opponent. Even when confronted with fire, they try to get around the flames and attack." Same page... "Int 6."

Hmmm... perhaps there was a point to their surprise at the trolls acting so out of character. Perhaps its not just "low int players... yuck yuck."

Now a good GM, instead of smacking them around a bit and spinning a tale for the boards to ridicule them, might well have made the "troll fights defensively" a CLUE! When his players unanimously exclaim "WTF, a troll fighting defensively" he could have said with a wry smile "yeah, that does strike your characters as odd, now that you mention it. OK, so who is up next?" and proceeded unabashed.

Monsters need to be roleplayed too. Thats the GMs job.

Then, as the story progresses the players might well unravel the mystery of the smart trolls. Perhaps they are dominated and trained by an evil mage. Perhaps they are products of some other oddity. Perhaps they are not really trolls at all but rather some shifter-thing able to mimic trolls powers but not as stupid.

I agree with everyone else that the tricks the PCs use should be used by their adversaries but i add "when appropriate for those characters to do so."

Stupid, fearless, not-afraid of death trolls would not seem to me to be "in character" to fight defensively, especially if he was ahead at the time.

My gang has encountered lots of trolls and the vast majority of them were pretty much as described, straight ahead guys, only rarely running and then only when seriously damaged (near 0 hp) from acid and fire. When that occurred, they fled. They did not use sophisticated target selections, usually swinging at whatever is closest, whatever just hit them, although rarely they choose enemies based on whether they have fire/acid.

As such, an intelligent party often can distract the troll from one ally who needs to fall back to another healthier ally. Note, by the monster being played as a 6 int rampager, the party gets a chance to SHOW in game that they are not 6 int themselves. They can see IN PLAY a difference between normal intelligence and low intelligence. They could be TAUGHT BY ME how to make INT affect your IN CHARACTER decisions.

or i could just decide trolls int is not gonna be a factor and play them like experienced fighters like all my other opponents. I could let there be little or no difference in the quality of tactical decisions made by ogres, trolls and smart fighters or even extremely intelligent guys... they could all be just as smart as me, the guy running them, and the players would BE TAUGHT BY ME that int does not matter in how your character shouls be played.

Funny thing, the time i threw a classed troll with a brain (fighter levels and 10 int) at them they caught on right away that he was "smarter than your average troll" as he did things like move to gain cover, take advantage of terrain and use good target selection, not falling for their usual anti-troll tricks.

They knew they were in a serious fight and took him very seriously. The fact that he was DIFFERENT and made better decisions than the usual trolls made for a wonderful addition of tension to the combat. He was exceptional, and that showed. They even tried to talk to him.

I much prefer that result to the one supported by this thread.

You know, it would be easier for me to play ogres and trolls as tactically with it as trained fighters and adventurers and monsters known for their brains and cunning like dragons and such, rather than having each on react and play based on his nature, but it would seriously detract from the flavor, would serve to cheat those "smart" adversaries of their moment to shine, and IMO would serve to seriously impact the relative CRs.

All in all, not a good thing IMO and not in play for my games.

To each his own.

"Trolls are definitely too strong for a 2nd level party to be expected to fight them. At CR 5 (minor ability tinkering notwithstanding), it's a reasonable fight for a 5th level party -- a 2nd level party should have about a 50/50 chance of entirely getting wiped out by a properly run troll. (Extrapolated chance of the whole party getting wiped out by a succession of 4 trolls: 94%.)"

TROLLS are not necessarily out of the range for 2nd level parties, particularly if indeed one at a time.

The CR = PC level is not "standard" it is merely the baseline for encounters which wont kill any PCs except by a fluke and which will drain 20% or so of resources. It is not meant to be "the encounter."

Look in the DMG and you will see they break down a typical adventure to include scenarios of a wide variety of ranges of CR vs PC level. They run the gamut from lower CRs to CRs of 1-4 above the PCs to grande finales of 5 or more CR higher.

They key elements are that as you reach the higher CRs, it becomes more risky to the PCs and in many cases they are great for full strength parties but lousy for a tired party "open the door...oh crap" encounters where they are unprepared.

A single troll vs a 2nd level party is manageable, albeit a tough encounter, and one in which PCs can die since the trolls strength is DAMAGE OUTPUT.

If, as the GM described, the trolls were set up scenario wise so that the party would not encounter more than one at a time (this includes making sure the others cannot react to the fight) and have the ability and a decent reason to pull back after each one, and did indeed have warning that trolls were afoot (and an opportunity to equip for troll hunting) this is still a serious fight in which the PCs have to be smart to keep everyone alive, but perfectly reasonable.

Of course, if these are not true, if the PCs will end up facing trols in pairs or one right after the other, if the PCs while warned had no good opportunity to equip to take advantage of that foreknowledge, or if these turn out to be exceptional trolls gifted with tactical insights so they won't be victims of their normal low int or reckless assault tactics... in short, if the GM plays the trolls so that party attempts to outsmart them are doomed to fail, then you probably have more troubles for the PCs.


Enjoy your games.

 

[dcollins]

Hmm, it seems to me that burning oil can be considered as a fire based attack, but that might just me (and my group)

Note that the poster seems to say that the player used Coup de Grace and only then applied flaming oil.

Perhaps more important is that alchemist's fire (and hence presumably flaming oil, not technically detailed in the core rules) is a ranged "grenadelike weapon" (PH 113, 138) and hence does not satisfy the CDG requirement that it be done with a "melee weapon... bow or crossbow" (PH 133).

 

[Darkness]

Note that the poster seems to say that the player used Coup de Grace and only then applied flaming oil.

Perhaps more important is that alchemist's fire (and hence presumably flaming oil, not technically detailed in the core rules) is a ranged "grenadelike weapon" (PH 113, 138) and hence does not satisfy the CDG requirement that it be done with a "melee weapon... bow or crossbow" (PH 133).

Maybe so if you throw it. Myself, I'd just pour that stuff on the troll.

 

[ThomasBJJ]

What I meant about the coup de gras was that once the troll went down from being at -9 hp (subdual damage of course) He dealt a few more blows of subdual damage to put it well below -9 to buy some time in the regeneration. He then poured any remaining flasks of lantern oil onto the troll and set him ablaze. I don't think that is unreasonable. I guess I misused the coup de gras term.

As for me coming on this board to riducule my players as one poster put it, you must have gotten the wrong impression of my posts. I was asking if it was far out of character for trolls to fight defensively. It was a very tough fight, I knew that when I designed it, but I also knew that if they fought smart and had a strategy, they could win with out too much trouble. It was a fun and memorable session (IMO) and I thought I'd relay the basics of the encounter for those who were replying.

Most of the replies thought it was reasonable. Yes I did read the MM where it states that trolls generally attack fearlessly. So thanks for you post petrosian or whatever, but try to tone down the condecention in your future posts. Its not for you to judge my game or wether I'm a good dm or not.

 

[dcollins]

Maybe so if you throw it. Myself, I'd just pour that stuff on the troll.

The rules don't change just because you want "pouring" to be different from "throwing". It's simply not categorized as a melee weapon.