Is it wrong for Troll's to fight defensively?

[Darkness]

edit - Ok, so dousing someone in oil is indeed a ranged attack, but it still can be used for a CDG.

 

[Petrosian]

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As for me coming on this board to riducule my players as one poster put it, you must have gotten the wrong impression of my posts. I was asking if it was far out of character for trolls to fight defensively.

That is certainly how you wrapped it, or rather how you started it, but by your second post you were no longer talking about trolls but rather about your players.

"Thats what I though, but I think all the players said simultaneously "He's Fighting Defensively?!?!?!?!""

Most of the replies thought it was reasonable.

And you do not have a problem with them judging your choices.

Yes I did read the MM where it states that trolls generally attack fearlessly.

and chose to ignore it and so far the only reasons given are that it made good tactical sense.

As I tried to get across above, good tactical sense does not always make good sense in character. Then again, the DM teaches his players how to play so you will get back what you sow.

So thanks for you post petrosian or whatever, but try to tone down the condecention in your future posts. Its not for you to judge my game or wether I'm a good dm or not.

Noting for the record that when the judgements were approval, that you did it right or that it was fair... you do not seem to have a problem with judgements at all.

Or are people agreeing with you that you did it right not "judgements" but people disagreeing with you are judgements even when they offer reasons and alternatives to highlight the differences?

I also notice how quick you are to respond when "your game" or "wether I'm a good dm or not" is found wanting in someone else's judgement but when, based on YOUR accounting some describes your players actions unfavorably with "sounds like your player characters didn't have a high intelligence. Seems to me like the troll had a higher int score." you don't have a problem and say not a word to challenge that poster's right to judge your players performances when they have not even had a say?

As for my right to judge, uhh..you brought your GMing to the table when you came here and posted publically questions and then proceeded to turn it to your players performances in the scene. If you solicit opinions, you might not always like the ones you get.

I had hoped to dissent from the pat-on-back get-the-players norm you were getting and show you other possibilities than just "made tactical sense" for determining NPC actions.

Oh well, waste of time.

 

[Macbrea]

Oddly, enough pouring something on someone is a ranged attack. As an example of doing this I shall quote the SRD.


A flask of holy water can be thrown as a grenadelike weapon. A flask breaks if thrown against the body of a corporeal creature, but against an incorporeal creature, the flask must be opened and the holy water poured out onto it. Thus, a character can only douse an incorporeal creature with holy water if he or she is adjacent to it. Doing so is a ranged touch attack that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.


Note that it is a ranged touch attack from one square away that doesn't provoke the AoO. Now, as to wether a CDG can be done with a ranged weapon the answer is yes from one square away.


So, it is possible to pour burning oil on an unconscious troll and CDG him.

 

[Darklone]

Huhm

I would even allow to CDG a troll for a lot of subdual damage with a normal weapon. It's no autokill then, but gives the players a lot of time. Have your trolls never made their Fort saves against an autocrit with a little bit of oil ?

 

[Endur]

fighting defensively and CDG

I wouldn't have trolls fight defensively IF you treat your trolls as "Fearless", "aggressive", and int 6.

Having said that, if it was low on hit points and about to fall unconscious, I could certainly see it being less aggressive than normal.

I have a dwarf who is one of the most defensive characters you can make in D&D, and my dwarf never fights defensively or uses expertise. So this might just be my opinion on the relative merits of fighting defensively.

With regards to Coup De Grace, my character has CDG'd several trolls with a torch. Take flaming torch, insert in troll mouth, flamebroil troll-head. Either the troll dies from the CDG or he has lost so many hit points from the automatic critical hit that he'll die next round when I CDG him again.

 

[mmadsen]

If my players decide to take their characters somewhere that they know will be too tough for them I tend not to pull my punches for long. I'll give them a chance to realise that the place is indeed too hard for them and withdraw, but if they don't take the hint then so be it.

That's just what we've been discussing in the Status Quo vs. Designed Encounters thread. If the players know that the world doesn't revolve around them, and they have the power to make both good and bad choices, it improves the verisimilitude ("realism") of the game. Just make sure the players know you're not going to pull your punches.

 

[hong]

Note that it is a ranged touch attack from one square away that doesn't provoke the AoO. Now, as to wether a CDG can be done with a ranged weapon the answer is yes from one square away.

Technically speaking, the only ranged weapons you can CDG with are a bow and a crossbow, and you have to be adjacent. See the PHB, p.133; you can't use a sling, nor a grenade-like weapon. But to heck with the rules. Personally, I wouldn't have any problem with the PCs setting fire to an unconscious troll in this way, and treating it as a CDG.

 

[Roland Delacroix]

Trolls fight fearlessly because they know they can't die. Out of 4 trolls, hey maybe one got his but kicked by fire and magic weapons ALOT, in fact enough to grow a fear of getting killed. He might fight defensivlly. Unusuall encounters give the game flava and keep PCs on their toes.

In fact, he might be so craven that he takes a level of rogue. And learns how to hide and attack from the dark. And drops 5 ranks in Tumble. So when he goes full defense to regen, he gets a +6 AC bonus. Just a thought.

 

[Aven]

I agree with petrosian, on most accounts. I really don't understad the accolades people were tossing about for having a troll fight defensively. Having some sort of human (or other race that fears death) opponenet do this and every other dastardly trick you could come up with would be lauadable, but not with creatures that would consider being ground into a fine red mist a temporary inconvience. Anyone remember the 2E monster manual? I recall something like "When trolls fight for dominance within the tribe, the winner would rip the loser's head off and throw it as far off a cliff as he could, leaving the loser to sit about and stew while a new one grows back...."

 

[hong]

I agree with petrosian, on most accounts. I really don't understad the accolades people were tossing about for having a troll fight defensively. Having some sort of human (or other race that fears death) opponenet do this and every other dastardly trick you could come up with would be lauadable, but not with creatures that would consider being ground into a fine red mist a temporary inconvience. Anyone remember the 2E monster manual? I recall something like "When trolls fight for dominance within the tribe, the winner would rip the loser's head off and throw it as far off a cliff as he could, leaving the loser to sit about and stew while a new one grows back...."

I am sure that even a troll would figure out that being knocked unconscious from too much subdual damage is generally bad for its health. It doesn't matter that it may not have personally experienced this for itself. As far as I know I haven't been killed, and yet I have an idea that being killed tends to be bad for my health.